Editing Talk:Particle Projector Cannon

{{WikiProject Technology|tr=new}}
I am curious about the statement regarding the PPC being a unique weapon in the Battletech Universe.  There are a range of different PPC's now available (ER, Snub-Nose, Heavy).  Do you mean that the weapon is unique to this universe, as in it doesn't exist in other games?  If so, I would like to point out that in Robotech, there is a weapon called PBC (Partical Beam Cannon).  These were installed on the Excaliber mechs (Unseen Warhammer in CBT).

I think "unique" this case refers to PPCs not existing in other fictional universes. I'm not sure how true that is, but I'm sure that is what the statement in the article is supposed to mean. Particle weapons do exist, but I've not heard any other series use the term "PPC" for their weapons. [[User:Haruspex|Haruspex]] 13:16, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

I also confirm that the PPC is really the Battletech Universe's signature --[[User:FIVE-one|FIVE-one]] 09:16, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
:We might be missing the point is. Is statement this verifiable? --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 20:04, 7 October 2008 (CDT)


Newbie here, but PPCs are not unique weapon, though it might be a unique name. It's basically just an ion/particle cannon. Of course, ion/particle cannons function differently depending on the fictional universe, but it's also a real weapon at least in principle. [[User:76.25.193.14|76.25.193.14]] 16:46, 9 June 2009 (PDT)

:Agreed - particle cannons are not new, although the name is unique.  Tesla proposed similar ideas and DARPA floated the idea in 1958 with experiments going on for decades.  It's possible that the game may have helped ''popularize'' them, though.  Since the line is wrong either IC or OOC, it really needs to go. [[User:Moonsword|Moonsword]] 18:18, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


== Recoil ==
Do PPC's have recoil? In one of the campaigns I've done, a ''[[Panther]]'' got knocked into space and was using its PPC to attack the enemy aerospace units. If it had recoil it would have rapidly gone into a spin and been unable to aim.--[[User:DragonoftheRust|DragonoftheRust]] 19:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

:As energy weapons, they should be recoilless. --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 01:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

::Totally not unique. Not to be too wikish, but no sources, just where are we getting that, cause lots of universes use some kind of particle projection technology. Largely because its real, like most BattleTech tech, its based on real theoretical, but as of yet unfeasible, technology, patented in this case by Nikola Tesla in the 30s. As for recoil, not to be combative, but you should think. It causes impact damage as well as thermal, therefor conservation of momentum tells us it must possess recoil, although that could be dampened or out and out countered (as there are many ballistic recoilless weapons in existance). True energy weapons cause only thermal and so lack recoil because the lack impact or mechanical kinetic energy. The PPC projects particles from itself against the target, this is infact essiantially the same process as is used for ion engines, which project Xenon particles to push themselves through space, as the lack something other than themselves to push against (as is the case with tires on a road or rotor blades on the air). Infact, I believe Tesla's designs called for Xenon to be used, a brilliant, crazy man. Friend of man, lover of pigeons. {{unsigned|174.112.16.133 |00:32, 4 January 2010}}

:::Not intending to be rude, but I'm not sure why it matters. BTW is intended to be an in-universe collection of data and if recoil is or is not a factor in the fictional weapons, then that is what should be represented in the articles. If the source materials contradict each other, then a ==Notes== section could/should be added to the article, to inform on the issue in an out-of-universe perspective. If recoil is never mentioned in any way, then it doeswn't belong in the article. In any case, canon statements regarding recoil (or lack thereof) should be referenced. I'll add the "cite needed" tag now. --[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 15:06, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

::::The PPC is a particle weapon, which means in crude terms it shoots particles at the target until it's dead, like a conventional firearm shoots bullets.  Those particles are matter and have mass, which means they fall under Newton's laws, especially the third one about equal and opposite reactions.  So just like a gun that shoots a bullet, it would naturally have recoil when it fires.  Even then, the recoil generated by firing a PPC might not be enough to cause the [[Panther]] to spin around in space, or not noticeably enough, depending on exact technical specifications and whatnot.  I removed the citation tag on that basis, if a canon BT source is required I apologize and will find one when I am able.[[Special:Contributions/66.51.147.57|66.51.147.57]] 20:11, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::As Revanche pointed out above, BattleTech is not real, so its weapons don't always follow real-world physics. All statements must reference an official source or risk being removed. --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 22:46, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::Late to the crowd, but..  TechManual (2007) PPC entry states that a PPC delivers both thermal and kinetic energy.  This is mirrored by Battletechnology magazine stating http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/3647322/pics/original/3133805.jpg  While no longer canonical likely due in part to retcons and blatant amount of in universe propaganda [fake mechs, imaginary technologies], many of its elements are still used in BT today up to a large chunk of the Tech Manual, from the Combat Efficiency Value (later Battle Value) to Extreme Ranges and much more.  (The point of the second reference is to show that recoil for PPCs has always been a thing in BT, given that the issue is written in either 1986 or 1987).  To note in comparison, lasers at the time were written as producing several hundred to a couple of thousand kilo-joules of energy so whatever the official level of BT laser energy floating around, bring it to 5,000 kilojoules for a PPC blast.  As for the kinetic energy, the subatomic particles of a particle beam being pushed is what causes the kinetic energy and as such the recoil.  Also, while their sources would need to be checked, here's a number saying "Yes it would" but it would be pretty negligible.  https://www.quora.com/Would-a-working-Directed-Energy-weapon-have-recoil  So yes, in BT and in real life, there's recoil, much like with Gauss Rifles, rail guns, etc.  In BT, however, the recoil is perhaps much higher than they technically should be but that just makes it more aesthetically satisfying, as MWO can demonstrate the lack of slightly exaggerated recoil (or lack of any at all) makes everything feel weak. --[[User:Koniving1|Koniving1]] ([[User talk:Koniving1|talk]]) 22:56, 29 September 2019 (EDT)

== fusion engine requirement ==
::::Umm...just wondering, do PPCs require a Fusion powerplant? I know that Lasers do, but am not quite clear on PPCs. --[[User:Porty1119|Porty1119]] 18:40, 27 August 2010 (EST)

:::::yes, all energy weapons require fusion engines or power amplifiers (or batteries on the infantry scale).  The sole exception are "vehicle flamers" that are fuel based rather than fusion based...  Trivia: the firestarter was originally fluffed to have an explosion hazard and was drawn with fuel tanks but had the stats for the fusion engine based flamers--[[User:PerkinsC|Cameron]] 09:22, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

== Projector vs. Projection ==

At what point did the full name of the weapon become Particle ''Projector'' Cannon? All of the older references I've seen (including the 3025 and 3050 Technical Readouts) list it as a Particle ''Projection'' Cannon. Is this an official change, or a glitch?--[[User:ArgentLA|ArgentLA]] 20:39, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
:I understand where you're coming from. I don't know when it changed, but it did. The new rulebook set (specifically ''[[TechManual]]'') uses "projector". --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 00:21, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
::Is this across the board from infantry to capitol ships or is it just for the combat vehicle / battlemech weapon?--[[User:PerkinsC|Cameron]] 19:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
:::''[[Tactical Operations]]'' says Naval Particle Projector Cannon, so the WarShip version is the same as the 'Mech weapon. In addition ''[[TechManual]]'' uses the same term for the infantry variants. So it appears that Projector Cannon is the new name.--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 19:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
::::wow... At least they are consistent--[[User:PerkinsC|Cameron]] 08:47, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 :::''[[Tactical Operations]]'' says Naval Particle Projector Cannon, so the WarShip version is the same as the 'Mech weapon. In addition ''[[TechManual]]'' uses the same term for the infantry variants. So it appears that Projector Cannon is the new name.--[[User:Mbear|Mbear]] 19:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 ::::wow... At least they are consistent--[[User:PerkinsC|Cameron]] 08:47, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
-== Koniving's PPC lore dump space for all to use! ==
-*Parti-Kill Heavy Cannon PPC
-Mounted on: Manticore, Hoplite 3-B, (feel free to finish list)
-Original text for people to paraphrase:
-"Unlike other particle cannons, the Parti-Kill does not use an energy collection capacitor or  similar chamber. Instead, it uses a series of magnetic collection bottles that gather their energy straight from the fusion reactor. These energies are then channeled through a larger magnetic bottle and released from the cannon. This fires an energy “shell” that loses cohesion and disintegrates at 540 meters. The Parti-Kill’s bolts are unstable at ranges under 90 meters." TRO 3026 original and revised.
-: Trivia notes - This is the PPC that Mechwarrior 2 onward based the many variations of the concept of a "lightning blue plasma ball" or lightning blue fireball comet on as opposed to the BT novel-and-artwork standard.  MW2 did this out of limitations (which is also why lasers were 'bullets', others likely followed the most recent game in an endless cycle.
-*Rand PPC - Goliath (pre-Phoenix variants), made by Brigadier Corporation on Planet Oliver
-*Anderson Armaments PPC 12 - From my notes before I had plans to add my stuff to a wiki, I have that the company is extinct, however their jumpjets continue to be produced by [General_Motors].  Mounted on the Scorpion.  "Many consider it (Anderson Armaments PPC 12) to be the best weapon produced by the firm, linked to the Garret GRNTRK 9 Targeting and Tracking System it was particularly deadly" TRO 3025.  The PPC was produced under licensed by Brigadier Corporation.  TRO 3039 still paints the primary equipment to be identical, but notes that few exist, points out how they have to cannibalize parts but more often than not its parts will be cannibalized for other mechs implying that the machine's parts and equipment are in high demand and thus no longer being produced.  However, Master Unit List shows literally everyone and their brother has access to Scorpion 1N.  [[Brigadier_Corporation]] also appears to be thriving according to Sarna, as the destruction of the [[Oliver]] facility in 2837 isn't even accounted for the two pages.
-*Magna Hellstar - (placeholder)
-*Magna Hellstar II - Far less common than the Magna Hellstar, its one notable trait on the Black Knight is that the weapon is not directly attached to the arm upon which it is mounted but instead on a form of pauldron, spaulder or wing-like mount that is capable of raising and lowering like an extremely basic 3rd arm, allowing the arm to move independent of the otherwise "arm-mounted" PPC.  The supply of Magna Hellstar II are highest in Comstar followed by the Free Worlds League, and PPCs in general in the FWL that the Magna Hellstar II often gets replaced by yet another large laser.  Black Knight, TRO 3039, TRO 3025.  (Implied/inferred by mention that Comstar keeps a stash of them, and that FWL which also has a large supply of them frequently has to replace the PPCs).  Overall it does not appear the Magna Hellstar MK II is mounted on any other machine and every entry mentions replacing them with literally anything else, including other PPCs (TRO 3050 Upgrade)
-*Ceres Arms Smasher - The weapon's sophisticated cooling jacket made it a less compact system than the Lord's Light PPC of the Panther - Wolves on the Border Kindle edition location 906.
-*Krupp Kinslaughter - often referred to as the Kinslaughter.  Krupp has two companies, Krupp Stellar Technologies Inc and Krupp Armament Works.  Of the two, Krupp Stellar Technologies is known for its very energy efficient designs with their large laser being exceptionally regarded.  The actual PPC is depicted as more compact than even the Lord's Light PPC and is unusually shown to be more compact than large lasers.  It visually appears to be snub-nosed akin to its big brother the Kinslaughter Heavy Class, however the barrel a fourth of the diameter of its ER PPC brother.
-In TRO 3050 Upgrade, is referred to a "supporting PPC" which provides "Excellent damage for its small size."  I have noted here that despite Krupp's reputation for energy efficiency, the Kinslaughter produced more heat than most PPCs with a coolant jacket / size note.  TRO 3050 Upgrade also notes that Blakists of Comstar replace the Kinslaughter on the Lancelot not with an ER PPC, but a different, older model PPC.
-Found it: "The Kinslaughter PPC is well-known for its difficulties in insulation. If not properly maintained, it will begin to generate more heat than most weapons of the same type, making preventive maintenance more of a priority than on other `Mechs." Lancelot entry TRO 2750.
-:Kinslaughter is also in contrast to the Kinslaughter Heavy Class (ER PPC), which also possesses a short barrel but exceptionally large diameter barrel roughly large than a mech's fist (TRO 3058 artwork Spartan), which is described as having Superior Workmanship and special insulating cones generated less heat and ease of maintenance despite its small size Rhonda's Irregulars Page 31, and the "Apex" of ER PPCs.
-::Fun trivia 1 - There is also an unspecified Kinslaughter ER PPC from FASA entries.  Kinslaughter Heavy Class ER PPC is post-FASA.
-::Fun Trivia 2 - Krupp is a real life company that makes weapons, although their highest real life export is in high quality barrels.  All appearances of Krupp-brand weaponry in the BT universe has a peculiar emphasis on barrels.
-*Tiegart - Will have to hunt down the source for this, but Tiegart PPCs are "10% smaller" than Donal PPCs.
-*Donal PPCs - Known for exceptionally long barrel and blocky power chamber.  (This one's already well known but thought I'd include it for completion).