Editing Talk:Timber Wolf (Mad Cat)

== Picture vs Stats ==
Hey guys. Has anyone noticed that the Mad Cat has LRM-15s on its shoulders in the pic but LRM-20s in the stats? :) I guess Clan LRMs are 33% more effective than IS ones? [[User:Bdevoe|Bdevoe]] 10:26, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

: I've noticed that for years. I also noticed that the arm weapons on the Mad Cat Prime are supposed to be PPCs, but are ER Large Lasers in the TRO. I actually made an alt config of the Cat with the PPCs and LRM-15s. It tends to be a bit short on short-range weapons, however. [[User:ClanWolverine101|ClanWolverine101]] 15:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

:: The Timber Wolf Prime art actually reflects what's referred to as the "Mark 1" omnis. At least nine of the 3050 Clan Omnimechs were previewed in a magazine prior to the full reveal of the Clans. All of them except the Warhawk had XL engines, ferro-fibrous armor, and endo steel chassis. The story I got from an old roommate, the guy who introduced me to the table top game WAYYYY back in college, was that the Mark 1 omnis were deemed too powerful and nerfed to the versions we know and love today. He still had the magazine that they appeared in to boot. If you hunt around Google long enough you can find them. The Timber Wolf mounts two ER Large Lasers, four ER Medium Lasers, two LRM-15s w/ Artemis IV FCS, and four machine guns. --[[User:Pa Weasley|Pa Weasley]] 04:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

::: Is there any sourcing on that magazine? Was it BattleTechnology or something like that? I remember seeing a website with that information, but I'd love to look at a real semi-canon source on it. Maybe the apocryphal "Mark Ones" deserve their own page? [[User:Citizen Erased|Citizen Erased]] 05:15, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::There is no Mark 1 Mad Cat.  In offical canon, the plain old original Mad Cat is considered the "Mark I" but its never been referred to as that.  The TRO FASA came up with Mark II in TRO 3067, it was the Clan Diamond Shark's idea of marketing a second line battlemech.  When WizKids took over FASA properties, they created the Mad Cat III & Mad Cat II (not Mk II). I can understand to newbies, or folks who haven't been around for while they'd would think there be a Mark I, if there a Mark II.  However in this case there isn't. -- [[User:Wrangler|Wrangler]] 10:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::: I'd love to be able to tell you exactly what magazine, but I flipped through it about thirteen years ago and haven't seen it since. I can't imaging any of the designs are cannon, but it's still a nice bit of BT history/trivia to post as apocrypha. Perhaps someone on the main BT boards has the reference. Someone over there has to still have a copy. --[[User:Pa Weasley|Pa Weasley]] 11:20, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
::The german site www.twobt.de offers these so called MK.1's as HMP-files, but they also state that no FASA-official has ever confirmed them. In their opinion, its just an urban myth...! [[User:RagTag|RagTag]] 12:04, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::::::If the Mark I you remember is from a magazine such as [[MechForce]] or [[Battletechlogy]], then they not considered [[Canon]]. If you click on the link for canon just added. It will show you what sources officially are considered first tier canon. The magazines like the ones i listed were offical battletech, but there no longer considered canon.  The [[Titan II]] that appeared in [[Technical Readout: 3075]], once appeared in Battletechnology magazine, but its not same as the one that was in magazine since publisher broke away from FASA. -- [[User:Wrangler|Wrangler]] 12:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::::::: The Mark I series of OmniMechs are an urban myth.. I have seen it stated as such by a developer over on CBT.com, who and when I am not sure but I have seen it.. but just for verification it might be worth asking over their. --[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] 16:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

::::::::::: I've had it confirmed that these weren't FASA based. Time for me to eat some crow and admit I was either suckered by my old roommate or remembering something wrong. Sorry for the confusion.--[[User:Pa Weasley|Pa Weasley]] 18:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about it bro lots of people are having this problem.. the discussion you started on CBT.com is as Herb said like a religious debate!! ;-), but I wonder if it might be worth creating an article on the wiki with links to the stuff unearthed about this though? --[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] 19:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

== Wonky Kitty ==

I was looking in the back of the Jade Phoenix Trilogy at the 'mechs.  Why does the TRO pic of the Timby back there have no arms?

If it is the side profile picture you are refering to, the picture appeared in the back of the original TRO 3050, it has a caption that reads the arms were omitted for clarity. -Garya

Yes, it has no arms on the side, but none on the front view either.

== Proposal : Merge "Related Battlemechs" with "Related Omnimechs" ==

Do we really need two different sections for this? Just a thought... [[User:ClanWolverine101|ClanWolverine101]] 15:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
: Agreed. It seems unnecessarily extraneous. [[User:Citizen Erased|Citizen Erased]] 03:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:: Done. [[User:ClanWolverine101|ClanWolverine101]] 14:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
::: While we're at it, can we remove ''Gargoyle'', ''Linebacker'', and ''Naga''? Their "relatedness" to the ''Mad Cat'' is tangential at best. --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 23:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::: Linebacker must be kept. It was specifically based on the Timber Wolf. The others? You could make an argument. [[User:ClanWolverine101|ClanWolverine101]] 00:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
::::: No, it wasn't. It was intended to "supplement and eventually replace it" (TRO:3055 & TRO:3055U). --[[User:Scaletail|Scaletail]] 01:32, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::: Which arguably means that parameters of the Timber Wolf's design - speed, weight, and general configuration preferences - influenced the Linebacker's development, much like how the evolution of the Marauder influenced the R&D behind the Dragon Fire. [[User:Citizen Erased|Citizen Erased]] 02:39, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
::First, if you want to merge, I suggest "Related 'Mechs" (which is all-encompassing).
::Second, the ''Timber Wolf'' is certainly related to the ''Gargoyle'' and the ''Naga''.  Consider, if all three are descended from the ''Woodsman'', then this relationship is analogous to children of a single parent.  All three designs should be considered as kin, each optimized for specific battlefield roles.
::Lastly, full agree with [[user:Citizen Erased|Citizen Erased]], a 'Mech designed to replace or mimic should also be included.  Bearing the same mix of weaponry as the ''Timber Wolf'' prime, the ''Rakshasa'' tries to fill the same battlefield role.  Further, the designers looked at the 'Mech and said, "let's make our look similar".  Even though the chassises come from distinctly different origins, these designs are converging towards the same ideas.  The same argument applies for the ''Linebacker'', except that in this case, the designers had been sitting on the technical schematics for the inspiration for over 100 years.  The biggest distinction is size and speed - even the weapons configurations of the ''Linebacker'' are intended to mimic those of the ''Timber Wolf'' (''L'',''T'': prime,A/A,prime/B,B/C,C).--[[User:S.gage|S.gage]] 02:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
::: Well said. Yes, the term "based on" was misused by myself. Like S.gage said, it was designed to replace the Timber Wolf. Its a fast heavy mech with configurations loosely based on the TWs. Personally, I always thought the problem with the Linebacker was that when CW was rolling the FRR, they were fighting 3025 mechs. Light omnis could take out 3025 heavy mechs, so certainly it made sense for CW to make heavy mechs that could keep up with their lights : The FRR couldn't outfight them anyway. That changed as the tech level of the IS increased and CW spent more time fighting other clans than it did the I.S. Just my 2 cents. [[User:ClanWolverine101|ClanWolverine101]] 15:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

==Woodsman==
Tangential question: the Woodsman is described as a "first generation OmniMech", but is it?  Is the ''Woodsman'' a first generation OmniMech of [[Clan Coyote]], or is it an early second generation Omni (like [[Clan Jade Falcon]]'s [[Summoner]])?  I've looked in TRO: 3050U, TRO:3055, and TRO: 3055U, but all I got is that it is an OmniMech that was old by [[2945]].  Neither is excluded: first generation Omnis must have begun production after 2854 (~90 before), second generation Omnis began appearing ~2870 (~75 before).--[[User:S.gage|S.gage]] 03:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
: There's still no published information on the Woodsman. Who knows? Maybe it'll show up in TRO:3085. Or the next Historical. Or Era Report:3052. TPTB have really been leaving us out to dry on that one. [[User:Citizen Erased|Citizen Erased]] 05:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
:: Agreed.  Speculating and writing up stuff where there litterly little or no information out would be foolish.  The writers have been in places, retroconning alot stuff to suit the fiction.  This includes the Clan things, hell there been cases where they'd forgotten about things that happened.  With DA era coming up, they'll be bound forget to a vehicle, 'mech or armor that showed up during the the Jihad. -- [[User:Wrangler|Wrangler]] 10:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

==MUL and ilClan==
there are several entries in the MUL that do not appear here, particularly the "Vlad", "Great White" and "Connor" variants, and the Recognition Guide vol 5 also mentions new variants. I think the moratorium period for recognition guide has passed, so perhaps these variants can be included in the article?-[[User:Volt|Volt]] ([[User talk:Volt|talk]]) 21:45, 24 January 2021 (EST)
:Wow that was quick. thanks for updating the article, Cyc! Are you also going to add the TC variant from [[BattleTech:_Battle_of_Tukayyid|Battle of Tukayyid]]?-[[User:Volt|Volt]] ([[User talk:Volt|talk]]) 05:38, 25 January 2021 (EST)
::Still under Moratorium so not yet, still waiting on CGL to give me my download code too (aka why I haven't added the table of contents) but can reverse engineer from the record sheets in the Supplemental so expect I will. After I add the new ComStar 'Mech variants FIRST too of course :) [[User:Cyc|Cyc]] ([[User talk:Cyc|talk]]) 05:44, 25 January 2021 (EST)