Editing User talk:Echo Mirage

{{Template:Welcome|realName=|name=Echo Mirage}}

-- [[User:New user message|New user message]] ([[User talk:New user message|talk]]) 06:56, 3 May 2022 (EDT)

== Citations ==

Hey Echo Mirage,

Welcome to Sarna! Nice start on the [[Space Marine]] article, you do need to add some citations to back up the info though! Resource if you need it [[Help:References]].--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 09:35, 3 May 2022 (EDT)

:Thanks! I will probably need to make it a bit neater as well at the rate things are going. I'm also planning to add in a new section listing some more of the other 'black water' marine elements. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 09:49, 3 May 2022 (EDT)

::Hi EM, Since Dmon already brought up citations in the Space Marine article, I wanted to drop a different suggestion. The "See Also" sections you added are very non-specific. Meaning, you have links to entire articles where only a portion of that article is relevant. Perhaps further breaking it down into sections would help. For example: "Transports", "Actions Involving Space Marines", and "Sources Containing Rules for Space Marines" would divide it up. Then link to the most specific section possible in the article, where available.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 16:26, 3 May 2022 (EDT)

:::Ok, I'll see if I can refine the links in that section a bit more tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion! [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 16:36, 3 May 2022 (EDT)

::::Echo Mirage,
::::I noticed you have been adding information to articles again without providing specific references. The reputation of this wiki is built on references. Please look through your edits and add them.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 11:32, 19 May 2022 (EDT)
:::::Sorry, didn't think I needed to put in a reference for the Blackhearts there since they were the only ones known to use the original Nighthawk Mk. XXI armour (though I did notice while double checking, that the MUL compilers had gotten a bit lazy or pressed for time and had reused that artwork a fair bit, including for the Bounty Hunter's XXX armors!). I put in the other citations/clarifications you requested as well. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 13:28, 20 May 2022 (EDT)
::::::The best rule to follow for Sarna, or indeed any Wiki, is "Do not Write it unless you Cite it."  I am one of the people who has been trying to clean up the backlog of works lacking sources, and it is often just easier to remove what is not sourced than it is to try to read the mind of someone who may have written this 11 years ago from a book that isn't even available to purchase anymore.  If you add something to an article, it should have a clear reference at the end with the source and the page (or for fiction ebooks, at least chapter) number at the least.--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 13:34, 20 May 2022 (EDT)
:::::::That approach would seem to have the risk of throwing out the Baby with the bathwater, though. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 12:12, 21 May 2022 (EDT)
::::::::Yes, sometimes we have to sacrifice things for the good of the Wiki.  Sometimes people come in and post stuff that is fanon, or an interpretation of a source that doesn't match up with a consensus about what it means, or that does not match up with what the developers said about it.  [[Policy:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence|Sarna has a clear policy on this]], and it is linked from every "refimprove" banner.  Anything that is not properly cited may simply be removed.  The burden is not on everyone else to take money out of the grocery budget and buy every single sourcebook to figure out where someone found that bit that the original editor may have made up in their own heads.   When I add something to the Wiki, I add citations so that others can verify what I wrote against the original text--that's not only the essence of what this is all about, it is basic ''courtesy''.   
::::::::Sir, Ma'am, or Gentle, I am going to ask that you take a little time to consider [[Special:ActiveUsers]].  Click the '100' there and you will see everyone who has been active on this wiki in the last thirty days.  That's it.  That's the team we have right now.  13,503 edits in the last month.  Of those, a ''third'' have been made by the people who have been coming here to this page to discuss your edits.  We are among the busiest people here, and we don't get paid a cent for it.  We are trying to help you improve and to fit into the rules and expectations of this Wiki.  I am asking you to step back and consider how to work with us, not against us, to help us and not to make us take time away from adding new content and fixing stuff from long ago.  Thank you.--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 12:42, 21 May 2022 (EDT)

:::::::::EM,
:::::::::1) I ask that you not make disparaging remarks about others (the MUL team in this case) while on this site. See [[:Policy:No personal attacks]].
:::::::::2) Unless that particular image of the Nighthawk Mk. XXI is specifically remarked to be a member of the Blackhearts, or is wearing an insignia indication so, it should not be labeled as such. That type of assumption is non-canon and can be considered fan-fiction. Both of which are prohibited here.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 17:50, 21 May 2022 (EDT)

Evening folks, This has not boiled over to the point that I feel I need to action as an Admin just yet but I would like people to take a deep breath and think about puppies and kittens for a second.

Echo Mirage, I very much get the impression that your heart is in the right place but some of your work is either not meeting our established standards or methodology. As a fairly new member of our community that is not entierly unexpected or uncommon. The Sarna is pretty damn big compared to most wikis and we likely have as many "unwritten guidelines" as we have official policies. Consider introducing yourself on our [https://discord.gg/CPjUMCbk36 Discord server], ask some questions and just generally get a feel for how the community works. I would like to think that once we hammer out some kinks you will find that as a community we all want the same thing. The wiki to be as good as it can be.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 18:53, 21 May 2022 (EDT)

:: I do not believe I ever disparaged the MUL team, and my apologises if I said something that was misinterpreted as such. I believe what I said about the MUL elsewhere can be summed up in that it is a good and handy quick reference but currently not quite as as reliable as an in-depth resource due to ongoing issues. I do have to ask though, exactly what new canon source states that, for a couple of examples, that there were no Royal variants of the Marauder BattleMech, and that the Blackhearts were not the sole users of the original Mk. XXI Nighthawk suits? I'll consider joining the discord. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 15:03, 23 May 2022 (EDT)

::: Nobody in this discussion stated that there are no Royal variants of the ''Marauder'' BattleMech. Regarding the Nighthawk Mk. XXI, the MUL has it available to factions other than the original Star League, starting from the Civil War era onward. In addition to those factions, ''Tactics of Duty'' states that the Gray Death Legion found a number of the suits on Karbala. Also, in ''Combat Equipment'' it is stated that, "Output has been shared with the SLDF and new Mk. XXIs have seen action with several Fury Teams." This is another plausible source for the "SLDF" lettering on the helmet in the picture. 

:::The whole point of this whole discussion asking you to provide references is that you, as the editor, need to show proof that what you are adding is fact, not for others to prove you wrong.--[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 18:04, 23 May 2022 (EDT)

== Infantry weapons ==

Hey Echo Mirage, I reverted your edits on the [[PM231]] article as there is an active effort to rebuild the Infantry Weapons section away from the 73,000 sub categories we currently have, the plan is to strip it right back and basically start again.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 21:52, 10 May 2022 (EDT)
:Same on the [[Terran Arms XM30 Carbine]].--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 21:54, 10 May 2022 (EDT)
::Ok, but do you mind if I add back the 'Terran Alliance' category to the two articles then? I'll ask you later which other ones it would be safe to add back while the rework is ongoing. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 21:59, 10 May 2022 (EDT)
:::I guess you could add Terran Alliance back in, I have not decided what the new category structure is going to be yet, I do not think we have enough info to build a nation based category tree though.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 22:10, 10 May 2022 (EDT)
::::Thanks! [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 22:13, 10 May 2022 (EDT)

Good Morning! Would there be any problem with me adding the 'Technology' category to the above two articles? [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 06:50, 11 May 2022 (EDT)
:Good Morning! There is not really reason for the technology category to be in an individual weapon article, it is a "meta" category. [[:Category:Infantry Weapons]] could be in technology, or maybe a step further and separate things like rifles, pistols etc but a PM231 is not a technology in of itself. Similar issue with the JumpShips you are adding the Terran Alliance category too, do individual jumpships belong in a top level category about an entire nation? 

:The wiki format lends itself to the creation of "category soup" where everything is thrown in, but what we really need is "category trees".--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 07:11, 11 May 2022 (EDT)

::I see what you mean. With regards as to the individual TSN jumpships, I was trying to gather them together in one place, pending some category refinement later. I'll try a bit of that now. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 07:20, 11 May 2022 (EDT)

:::Go for it! you are working in some of the rougher parts of the wiki so there is a lot of space for refinement of ideas.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 07:31, 11 May 2022 (EDT)

::::I think you kinda need to take some time to layout what you are planning Echo. (Your [[User:Echo Mirage|user page]] is a good place to do this), refinement is good but stuff like the history category.. If you look at what is in there already it is full of articles called History of xxxxx, so that gives you an indication of the current direction. The fact that [[History of the Terran Alliance]] does not exist is not a reason to turn the history category into a "soup" of anything related to the history of--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 09:29, 11 May 2022 (EDT)

:::::Yes, my category bonsai may need some more work! Think I will come back to that another day, and just work on some more articles for now! [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 09:34, 11 May 2022 (EDT)

== "In the Navy" ==
When working with Spacecraft, a good person to talk to is [[User:BrokenMnemonic]].  He did a lot of the work on the spacecraft on here.  If you start getting into Word of Blake Naval Assets, let me know: I am slowly but surely working on that.  I don't know of anyone else who is focusing on the Terran Alliance stuff, so congrats, you found yourself a niche. :) --[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 08:28, 11 May 2022 (EDT)

::Thanks lads! [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 08:31, 11 May 2022 (EDT)

==Faction Equipment==
[[KungsArm%C3%A9#Equipment]]. We find it best to not try to out-MUL the [[Master Unit List|MUL]]. Faction lists of equipment were removed from the wiki because they are impossible to properly maintain and the MUL is a free (official) resource. The categories that remain cover only equipment manufactured by factions. --[[User:Cache|Cache]] ([[User talk:Cache|talk]]) 11:33, 12 May 2022 (EDT)

:Hi. I wasn't trying to make a comprehensive list, just a sampling of the units used, and concentrating where possible on equipment made domestically. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 11:39, 12 May 2022 (EDT)

::I see somebody else has already raised it, I was just looking at the [[Rotunda]] article and was going to ask about the support for it being produced for ComStar given that the article says "The design became extinct outside of the stockpiled examples in the military forces of ComStar and the Word of Blake.". That is something very different.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 19:04, 13 May 2022 (EDT)

:::I thought the category was for equipment that was produced and/or used by Comstar? [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 19:09, 13 May 2022 (EDT)

::::The text did say that but it should not of, As Cache has already said, the MUL is built specifically for the purpose of charting who uses what. The wiki is more interested in who builds things, especially since third succession war scavenger culture means that literally every faction has had every unit at some point. For a real world example of our thinking, the M1 Abrams. It is an American Tank, and you would be hard pressed to find anybody who says different despite the fact that half a dozen diffent countries use them.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 19:21, 13 May 2022 (EDT)

:::::The Abrams may not be the best example to use there, despite it eventually becoming one of the best tanks in history, due to its rather tangled history, procurement and otherwise. ;)  As to the MUL, it is a handy quick reference for some things, but for things like in-depth coverage it does have a fair number of shortcomings not least of which is that more than a few canon units still don't have entries, or complete ones at least. With regards as to 'Category:ComStar Combat Vehicles' and others like it, I feel that you may be unnecessarily narrowing their scope. For instance, Comstar actually outsourced the production of lot of its equipment to outside companies as it expanded its forces, though pre-Schism at least, a lot of these companies were actually Comstar front companies, or were otherwise heavily controlled or influenced by the Order. Post-schism there was an explosion in technology transfers, licence production agreements and the like between Comstar and genuinely external parties, in both directions, as it tried to regain lost trust while refocusing on joint efforts to defeat the Clans. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 11:23, 15 May 2022 (EDT)

==Royal Scandal==
Hey, EM.  Apologies if I am wrong, but you seem to have an interest in the Royal units.  While taking care of an unrelated problem, I came across one of the SLDF Royal Divisions that has ''no references''!  (The scandal!) I don't have the sourcebook, thought I would drop a note in case you do and might be willing to toss a few citations on there: [[342nd Royal BattleMech Division]]--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 09:28, 18 May 2022 (EDT)
:Summon the firing squads! :D I don't have that sourcebook with me at the moment, but I'll have a look around later on and see what I can dig up on it. Thanks for the heads up. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 11:15, 18 May 2022 (EDT)
::No luck so far, apart from the fact it was one of those formations that was not in the normal corps chain of command. I'll keep looking. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 14:14, 18 May 2022 (EDT)

==Xanthos==
Hi---I just noticed your edit to the Xanthos page, where you wrote that there was a "much improved version of the ''Xanthos''". Could I ask what source you found the "much improved" descriptor in? I'm not seeing it in any products. --[[User:GreekFire|GreekFire]] ([[User talk:GreekFire|talk]]) 12:10, 18 May 2022 (EDT)

:Evening! The entry on the 81st Mechanized Infantry Division in the 'Field Manual: SLDF' implies that the Xanthos mechs that they received was a improved version of the Xanthos then recently taken into CCAF service, though unfortunately it doesn't go into any real detail. Going by the tone of the entry though, it seemed to be considered to be up to SLDF standards both by the division and the SLDF High Command. I might rewrite that part of the sentence though to avoid any confusion. Thanks for pointing it out. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 12:28, 18 May 2022 (EDT)
::Just read that, and I am not seeing anything to indicate they were other than standard ''Xanthos''.  A full battalion, but nothing about them being non-standard.--[[User:Talvin|Talvin]] ([[User talk:Talvin|talk]]) 12:31, 18 May 2022 (EDT)
:::I feel blind as a bat, but I'm not finding a sentence that implies that they're improved over the -3O myself. I'm sorry to harp on this---I just want to make sure that there's not a missing variant on the MUL here. --[[User:GreekFire|GreekFire]] ([[User talk:GreekFire|talk]]) 12:32, 18 May 2022 (EDT)

::::No problem, it is quite possible that I've read too much into the text myself. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 12:35, 18 May 2022 (EDT)
:::::For the moment, I'll alter the language in the article a bit. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 12:38, 18 May 2022 (EDT)
::::::Since there doesn't seem to be the word "improved" anywhere in FM:SLDF, that edited text remains speculative in nature. I'm going to go ahead and make a few more adjustments to make sure the text aligns with the printed material. --[[User:GreekFire|GreekFire]] ([[User talk:GreekFire|talk]]) 12:56, 18 May 2022 (EDT)
:::::::Ok, though I fear that it may unintentionally give the impression that the Division was using junk 'Mechs. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 13:08, 18 May 2022 (EDT)
::::::::Sarna has to stick with published, canon material. In this case, unless I'm missing a passage, canon does not state that the Xanthos BattleMechs were upgraded in any way. As such, writing that they're upgraded does not fall into the factual policy of the wiki, no matter what the assumed tech levels of a military may be. --[[User:GreekFire|GreekFire]] ([[User talk:GreekFire|talk]]) 13:14, 18 May 2022 (EDT)

==Draconis Combine and Free Rasalhague Republic Infantry Kit==
Just wanted to share my appreciation for the effort you made to address the rules issue that led to the article being tagged for deletion, by making it lore-dependent.--[[User:Revanche|Revanche]] <sup>([[User_talk:Revanche|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Revanche|contribs]])</sup> 13:18, 26 July 2022 (EDT)

:Thanks [[User:Revanche|Revanche]]. Happy New Year! [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 18:32, 31 December 2022 (EST)

== Faction catagories ==

Hey EM,

First up thanks for creating the Amaris Empire category, I had not realised that it was missing. Now, I have undone a few of your edits but it is not because you have done anything wrong as such. I am planning on tightening up the guidelines on what goes into the faction categories, ultimately I do not want any articles in the category at all, I want them to more serve as a hub for each nations related categories. I created one for the republic of the barrens yesterday that I think is going to be the guide text in future [[:Category:Republic of the Barrens]].--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 14:54, 8 January 2023 (EST)
:Ok, I'll hold off adding anything further to the category then. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 14:58, 8 January 2023 (EST)
::You can add categories to the category, just not articles. Say for example you added the Stefan Amaris article, that would already be included in the Amaris Empire Characters category, that then would link back to the Amaris Empire category as a subcategory. linking articles directly and we will have a massive jumble of loosely linked articles in no time. so the idea is to make things fairly easy to find.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 15:02, 8 January 2023 (EST)
:::By the way, why did you delete Category:Star League, and Category:History, as parent categories for Category:Amaris Empire? [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 15:21, 8 January 2023 (EST)
::::The Amaris Empire is a nation, so the history category does not apply directly to the category, maybe an article name [[History of the Amaris Empire]], but not the category. And the Star League one is kinda similar in that it is a category about the Star League so putting that tag there is a bit like tagging the federated suns in the draconis combine category.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 17:08, 8 January 2023 (EST)
:EM, please stop putting faction categories on articles. Please just leave them alone.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2023 (EST)
::I was going to move them further on into new sub-categories tonight, i.e. History of the Society [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 04:07, 13 February 2023 (EST)

==References and other unsourced information==
Hey Echo,

There have been complaints that your edits are not being cited. I have had a look through your recent edit history and I did indeed find a fair few edits that added info that is going to need a reference. For example stuff like the [[Word of Blake Militia]]/[[Protectorate Militia]] using the [[Magi]]. A lot of the edits are not direct additions to the article text but more categories. For example you added the [[War Dog]] to the Star League category but as far as I am aware the unit was never built by the star league. It is built on Outreach for sale to 'Mercenaries, just adding unit categories with no supporting text makes me think you are using the MUL as your source or something.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 21:35, 14 January 2023 (EST)

::It was designed (and presumably built in at least prototype form) for the SLDF during the original Star League era though? [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 15:50, 18 January 2023 (EST)

:::That is the rub though, ''presumably'' is not the same as an actual citation saying it was built during the star league era.--[[User:Dmon|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon|talk]]) 16:58, 18 January 2023 (EST)
::::The wording though strongly suggests that at least one prototype was built at the time, in particular with its use of the word 'extinct'. An extinct design is one that had at least some examples built at one time, as opposed to a rediscovered unbuilt design. [[User:Echo Mirage|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage|talk]]) 13:03, 19 January 2023 (EST)
Latest revision		Your text
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	:::That is the rub though, ''presumably'' is not the same as an actual citation saying it was built during the star league era.--[[User:Dmon\|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon\|talk]]) 16:58, 18 January 2023 (EST)		:::That is the rub though, ''presumably'' is not the same as an actual citation saying it was built during the star league era.--[[User:Dmon\|Dmon]] ([[User talk:Dmon\|talk]]) 16:58, 18 January 2023 (EST)
−	::::The wording though strongly suggests that at least one prototype was built at the time, in particular with its use of the word 'extinct'. An extinct design is one that had at least ~~one or more~~ examples built at one time, as opposed to a rediscovered unbuilt design. [[User:Echo Mirage\|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage\|talk]]) 13:03, 19 January 2023 (EST)	+	::::The wording though strongly suggests that at least one prototype was built at the time, in particular with its use of the word 'extinct'. An extinct design is one that had at least some examples built at one time, as opposed to a rediscovered unbuilt design. [[User:Echo Mirage\|Echo Mirage]] ([[User talk:Echo Mirage\|talk]]) 13:03, 19 January 2023 (EST)