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User talk:BrokenMnemonic/2014 Archive

< User talk:BrokenMnemonic

Good yearEdit

I wish you a good year party. I know we have some hours. Have some flowers and wishes in that case.--Doneve (talk) 00:55, 31 December 2013 (PST)

Hy Doneve! I hope you survive the New Year better than the picture on your user page   I have a couple of friends coming around to celebrate the New Year and stay for a few days, which will be nice - although I couldn't resist adding the Soyal here before I do any more cleaning. And I want to add the Black Lion I too... I hope that you're going to have fun seeing the New Year in with friends and family? I'm going to be introducing my friends to the wonder that is Mozartkugeln today   Here's hoping that 2014 is a good year for all of us. No getting sick on your part - that's an order. I know the nurses are pretty, but it's not worth it! BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:49, 31 December 2013 (PST)
Thanks, yep we got a little party, and you know the Mozartkugeln came from the we called "Schluchten Scheisser"   (Austria), have nice days with your family and friends.--04:36, 31 December 2013 (PST)
I know   But I always used to buy them when I was going to the Army Wargames Association convention in Rheindalen... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 05:20, 31 December 2013 (PST)

Citations for Capellan Civil WarEdit

Do I need to add citations for the Background part?--Aldous (talk) 05:15, 31 December 2013 (PST)

Basically, yes - if an article states a fact, that fact should be cited to link back to the original canon statement supporting that fact. If an entire paragraph is drawn from a single source, it's ok to just put one citation at the end of each paragraph. The policy on refernces was tightened up a few years ago, but a lot of early material isn't correctly cited, or adds a text entry in the References section covering the article, but that doesn't work when articles draw in information from more than one source. Accurate references help confirm the validity of what's been said - and, on a personal note, there've been a few occasions where someone's been spouting on a forum about how something on Sarna was clearly made up by the fanboys who edit here, only for it to be pointed out that the issue in question has citations going back to a canon source that confirm what's been said. I've occasionally used the references in articles to try and shut down accusations on the Catalyst forums that stuff is made up, and there's also been at least one occasion (composition of Marian Hegemony infantry forces) where accusations that stuff was being made up here actually highlighted that canon itself had changed between sourcebooks.BrokenMnemonic (talk) 05:26, 31 December 2013 (PST)

Admiral Russell NgaEdit

Excellent article on the Admiral Russell Nga, a rather obscure ship. I was looking at this ship myself, but your piece is better that what I would have written. So here is a Happy New Year award! (Its for the article really)   --Dark Jaguar (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2014 (PST)

Thank you, that's very kind   Fortunately, I'd used a lot of the same detail when working on the other ship articles, so I could pull the battle detail reasonable easily, although digging out the Kimagure class detail took a bit longer. I've possibly jumped the gun, as I've also asked a question over on the CGL forum over what ships fought at Priori and whether they escaped, but having just done the Surprise that redlink was bothering me! BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:25, 5 January 2014 (PST)
You are very welcome! Yes, War of Reaving can be a little hard to follow in places, give you excellent detail one minute and then leave you dangling with unanswered questions the next   --Dark Jaguar (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2014 (PST)

Sourcebook SearchEdit

Hello. I am looking for a Sourcebook where Sun Tzu Liao talked about Isis Marik after he broke off the engagement. It was first person, maybe from his journal/diary? I remember reading it but can't remember the name now. Any help is welcome.--Aldous (talk) 19:47, 5 January 2014 (PST)

Are you thinking of his comment after she was almost killed on Hustaing? Page 66 of The Killing Fields has Isis Marik saying ""Sun-Tzu don't do this. I can still be of use to you and your realm." followed by "Sun-Tzu turned away and reached to open the latch on the door." Your usefulness to my realm ended,"he said, low and cruel, "the day you made it off Hustaing alive." Or are you thinking of something later? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 23:57, 5 January 2014 (PST)
That line ("Your usefulness...") is quoted in Isis' internal monologue in Shadows of Faith (part 5, page 3) as well. Frabby (talk) 00:06, 6 January 2014 (PST)
Not that one. I was referring to the one after she left and Sun Tzu was thinking of her. It was from a sourcebook where they were quoting one of Sun Tzu's diaries or something. Like the one in p. 66 of Shattered Sphere. Damn old PDFs can't be searched.--Aldous (talk) 07:43, 6 January 2014 (PST)
I've been through the sourcebooks from the Civil War era, and I can't find anything in those. It's also not in the Interstellar Players series, or Masters and Minions. It was definitely in a sourcebook, I take it? It wasn't one of the novels, or something like the INN articles or a BattleCorps product? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 09:39, 6 January 2014 (PST)
Oh well... I am sure I will find it again eventually. Thanks anyway.--Aldous (talk) 09:52, 6 January 2014 (PST)

Category:Individual Convenant-class WarShipsEdit

Hey Broken, just wondering if there is a way to rename the page Category:Individual Convenant-class WarShips to have Convenant to be spelled Covenant instead, or does a new page need to be created with the old one being redirected to it? DerangedShadow (talk) 08:00, 6 January 2014 (PST)

Arg arg arg arg arg. Dratted typo. I'll fix it, thanks for pointing it out. That's what I get for rushing at work! BrokenMnemonic (talk) 09:01, 6 January 2014 (PST)

Ships to Write UpEdit

Need Help on Operation Guerrero's Second WaveEdit

Hello. Do you know of any sourcebooks that details how many planets were taken by Liao in its second wave? How many waves did the CCAF do?--Aldous (talk) 05:11, 21 January 2014 (PST)

It's not really clear how many waves the CCAF launched, partly because so many of the combat actions were launched by mercenaries. The combats also dragged back and forth - with the various resistance movements causing havoc on some worlds but not successfully overthrowing the planetary government. Outside of the novels, the only books I'm aware of that deal with Guerrero consistently are Shattered Sphere (p. 68/69 and 74-76), Era Report: 3062 (p. 13-15 plus sidebar), Chaos March (p. 8), Handbook: House Liao (p. 57-58), the first two Mercenaries Supplementals, Field Manual: Mercenaries (Revised). I don't have electronic copies of Field Manual: Capellan Confederation and Field Manual: Federated Suns to search, but I suspect that there may be some detial in there as well; however, all of the various Merc Supplementals/Field Manuals have the information dotted around between the various unit articles, and I haven't found anything that confirms what was in the second wave and whether there was a third wave. Shattered Sphere has more detail than any, and that doesn't list which worlds were in which waves, unfortunately. It looks like there were at least three waves of attacks, two in one direction and one in another, plus the annexation of the Sarna Supremacy and the deployment of troops to at least three worlds where the government was overthrown by resistance forces. And Northwind. A lot of the sources don't list the months of the attacks, so I don't think there's anything that'll give a definitive list of the worlds even by comparing sources together. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:45, 21 January 2014 (PST)
Yeah. I have a pretty good idea which worlds were hit in the First Wave and some of the Second Wave but its mostly educated guesses and process of elimination. Frankly, there simply aren't enough CCAF and Mercs to do that 3-1 thing outside of the First Wave.--Aldous (talk) 16:04, 21 January 2014 (PST)
I have a feeling that if that claim was tested with the Writers, the answer might revolve around it being partly a generalism in the in-universe reporting, and partly based on dropping combinations of small, un-named mercenary units dropping onto worlds not listed as having any units of significance on them. plotting out on a map which worlds were taken in the waves we know about to see how that compares with the total number of worlds taken might given an idea of how far each wave extended and the likely identity of the un-named worlds taken in each wave, but that would largely be supposition unless we can find unit entries that say "involved in attacking Planet X as a part of the second wave of Guerrero attacks..." I think it's a little like the Word of Blake Protectorate, though - for all the information that's been published, a lot of planets look to have been incorporated into the Protectorate without being directly mentioned, only being obvious when maps from different years are compared. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2014 (PST)

Looking for Info on Hollis Inc. and the Huron WarriorEdit

I remember reading somewhere that the Huron Warrior was manufactured by Hollis Inc. in pieces on several planets and just assembled by hand once the different parts were brought together. It wasn't until Corey was taken in 3057 that all the varied factory components were centralized in one location. That's why the MUL says the mech was introduced in 3055 with a Liao prototype made in 3051. Handbook: House Liao made mention of this on the Highlander. Anyway, do you know of any books that state this? I can't remember where I read it.--Aldous (talk) 18:52, 29 January 2014 (PST)

Nothing springs to mind, but I don't tend to remember much associated with 'Mechs past 3050. I'll take a look around and see what I can find, but because of the crazy currently going on at work it'll be Saturday or Sunday before I get a chance to do a proper search... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:07, 30 January 2014 (PST)
I found the information you searched for. The original Huron Warrior had the following weapons: 2 LRM 15 support by 4 Medium Lasers. And the Mech had a lower top speed as well because it had a weaker reactor. ref: FASA - 8619 - Technical Readout - The Future of Warfare p. 42 (The edition which contains the original unseen mechs from 3055 like the Jenner IIC). I hope that info helps you in some way. With best regards Neuling (talk) 11:23, 30 January 2014 (PST)
Thanks Neuling!   BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:38, 30 January 2014 (PST)
Any mention on the segregated factories? It would make Hollis unique in the Inner Sphere if its true.--Aldous (talk) 09:40, 31 January 2014 (PST)
I can't offer any actual help on the Huron Warrior factory conundrum, but I do recall that it was discussed on the BT forums at one point. I suggest you contact (PM) one of the MUL manufacturing experts there - Xotl, ColBosch, DarkISI or jymset - about the issue. They should be able to help you out. Frabby (talk) 12:20, 31 January 2014 (PST)
Revisiting this, somebody has raised the issue here. Frabby (talk) 01:29, 3 February 2014 (PST)

Help to create a InfoboxEdit

Hello BM, can you help me to create a Infobox for the various academies. I think the box should include: image/logo, location, courses (mechwarrior,tank,infantry,aerospace,special). With best regards Neuling (talk) 11:44, 2 February 2014 (PST)

I can put an infobox together, I think. However, what do you think should be done about those academies that offer different courses at different points in time? I don't particularly want to put a date field in the infobox, because then the ifnormation is only current as at the latest date. I could make each course a date field, if you can give me an exhaustive list of all the different course types, and the infobox could then be adjusted to show dates when those courses have been available; I don't think it would make the infobox too cluttered, because we haven't had that many updates that covered academies and other learning institutions, but it'd need testing to check. Are you think it should be for military academies only? Or, alternatively, would you prefer something where you could specify what each course is and the dates it was available, tailoring the infobox for each individual academy? That way, it could also be used for civilian institutions like schools/universities. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:17, 2 February 2014 (PST)
Tnx for your fast response about that topic. I think we should keep it simple. We can include a field which name can be courses and in that field we can include the specific course and its duration. With that structure its easy to understand.

an excample:

State: Lyran Alliacne/Lyran Commonwealth
Location: Tharkad
3062 - Field Manual - Lyran Alliance: Infantry, Battlearmor, Armor, Mech, Aerospace Fighter, Jumpship/Dropship/Warship, Technican, Artillery, Spcialist
3079 - Objectives - Lyran Alliance: BattleMech, Aerospace, Armor, Battle Armor, Infantry, Spacecraft, Artillery, Technician, Specialist
What do you think about that example? With best regardsNeuling (talk) 16:06, 3 February 2014 (PST)
Hi Neuling,
I think the main worry I have with that format is that we'd end up with some very long fields in the infobox - so long that they'd be bordering on actual text paragraphs, which I think tend to belong in the description itself. I'm going to sit down tonight and have a play around, and see if I can come up with something. Are there many civilian universities or training schools/academies that have detailed descriptions/listings? It's not something I've looked at, but it would be useful to be able to use the same template for both if there are. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 09:37, 4 February 2014 (PST)
ETA: Ok, I've put together a draft template, and put a test version in The Nagelring article - can you take a look and see what you think? My first thought is that it may need a few more class rows, to allow for even more classes - the Nagelring article uses all bar one in the military category, and would go over the limit if the Spacecraft classes were broken out into JumpShip, DropShip and WarShip classes. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 11:27, 4 February 2014 (PST)
BM your are amazing. You have done a greate job with infobox for the various academies. I will incorporate the design over the next several days into the induvidual academy sites. Tnx Neuling (talk) 23:55, 4 February 2014 (PST)
I've expanded the number of slots for courses up from 10 to 15 of each - if you find you need more, let me know and I'll expand the template further. Equally, if there's something obvious that could go in it that I've missed, let me know and I'll update the list accordingly - I did think about things like Academy colours, because I remember that places like the Nagelring and Sanglamore have their own colours/rags, but I wasn't sure if the same was true for every major Academy, which might make it redundant. I also wondered if it would be worth adding a box to populate with details of any attached training battalions/units the academy might have, too. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 02:47, 5 February 2014 (PST)

Several RequestsEdit

Hello BM, first congratulations about the new staus as admin. Second I changed he composition history of the different Davion Guards command as an test. What do you thin about the new structure? Second I think it would be helpful o divide the Brigade pages into era specific sub sections, because some commands were rebuild and some command were only memories of a gloriuos battle. The size of some brigades varies considerable. Tnx for your support so fare. with best regards Neuling (talk) 16:12, 3 February 2014 (PST)

Hi Neuling,
Thank you for the congratulations   I'm a little bemused to have been offered admin status, but I'll do my best to do a good job. I think I might drive Mbear and Frabby mad with questions, though!
I've been looking through the Davion Brigade of Guards articles you've edited, and in general, I think I like it - it'd be worth starting a conversation on the military unit talk page to discuss expanding it to cover all units. I do have a couple of questions, though.
Using the Fourth Davion Guards as an example:
In 3028, the Armor and Infantry Brigades each have a unit mentioned by name - the 1st Bellevue Armored Regiment and the 17th Kestrel Mechanized Infantry. The two named sub units are indented one level further in than the Brigades, but don't have bullet points at the start. However, in the 3062 entry, all of the sub units to the Brigades are bulleted. I prefer the format of the 3062 entry, but shouldn't both be consistent with each other?
In the 3062 entry, I think it would look better if the various regiments were listed numerically and then alphabetically - I'm a big fan of things flowing in a logical order, unless there's a reason otherwise (like the listed order of precedence within British Army infantry regiments, for example). I also think it would look better if, where those sub-units have extra detail known, like the names of COs and notes on compositions, those were indented in a fashion similar to the units further up. I'm thinking something like this:
Hello BrokenMnemonic, I correct my little mistake at the 3028 section of the 4th davion Guards. Now all sub commands have bullets. About the topic to sort the single commands logical is for me a personal taste. The actual composition reflects the information of the Field Manuals. We can discuss about it but for me it makes no different if they are sorted or not. And by the way I have a little suprise for you over the next few days. With best regards Neuling (talk) 23:59, 4 February 2014 (PST)


4th Davion Guards[1]

4th Davion Guards Armor Brigade

  • 1st Bellevue Armored Regiment[1]

4th Davion Guards Infantry Brigade

  • 17th Kestrel Mechanized Infantry[1]


4th Davion Guards (1 Regiment/Elite/Fanatical)[2]

CO: Marshal Alberta Orsina
Aide: Leftenant Colonel Korath Adams
- Equipped with nineteen OmniMechs, structured like a Clan Trinary

4th Davion Guards Aerospace Brigade (2 Wings)[2]

CO Rear Admiral Pallas Czaban
  • 83rd F-C Fighter Wing
  • 84th F-C Fighter Wing

4th Davion Guards Armor Brigade (4 Regiments/Elite/Reliable)[2]

CO: Leftenant General Hohiro Ma
Aide: Hauptmann-Kommandant Billy Lutz
  • 4th Guards Artillery Battalion
CO: Major Jeb Richelieu
  • 7th Zebebelgenubi Light Armor Regiment
CO: Leftenant Colonel Francis Daebel
CO: Colonel Z. Alan Maloney
- The 15th fields hovercraft units
  • 19th Bolan Armored Regiment:
Colonel Hetty Rutt-Steiner
  • 30th Federation Light Armor:
CO: Colonel Dewey Simms
- The 30th fields hovercraft units

4th Davion Guards Infantry Brigade (5 Regiments/Regular/Reliable)[2]

CO: Leftenant General Estes Malevannyy
Aide: Colonel Hak-Joong Kim
  • 3rd Saginaw Jump Infantry
CO: Leftenant-Colonel: Zachary Rybacki
  • 18th Manassas Mechanized Infantry
CO: Colonel Pam Kunin
  • 177th F-C Mechanized Infantry
CO:Colonel Alexander J. Beyer V
- The 177th includes a battalion of Cavalier Battle Armor
  • 178th F-C Mechanized Infantry
CO: Leutnant-Colonel Eugenia Bello
- The 178th includes a battalion of Cavalier Battle Armor
  • 478th New Avalon Rifles
CO: Colonel Kyle Elms
What do you think? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 09:54, 4 February 2014 (PST)

Admin StatusEdit

Hi Dude, congrates to the new status, hope all is well with you!

Thank you   I've got a lot to learn, but thankfully it seems to be fairly quiet at the moment. I am looking forward to being able to delete spammers... I'm not sure about the whole responsibility thing, though   How're you? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:33, 15 February 2014 (PST)
All is fine, i have time at this weekend to contribute a little bit, but monday starts the horror week on work, grml.--Doneve (talk) 13:38, 15 February 2014 (PST)
Yes congratulations BM   --Dark Jaguar (talk) 13:50, 15 February 2014 (PST)


  1. 1.0 1.1 1.2 Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; no text was provided for refs named NAISv1-015
  2. 2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; no text was provided for refs named FMFS82

List of Books by YearEdit

Is there a list of all Sourcebooks and other Publications in order of year published? --Aldous (talk) 19:43, 9 February 2014 (PST)

There's a list of all of the sourcebooks, rulebooks and supplementals here: List of BattleTech products. That one's up to date. That doesn't list novels or BattleCorps material, though. There's a list of novels here: List of BattleTech novels. There's also a general category showing BattleCorps-only products: Category:BattleCorps publications but the scenarios have their own page here: BattleCorps Scenarios. I can't testify as to how accurate those are though as I'm not a BattleCorps subscriber. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 23:45, 9 February 2014 (PST)

Request ReviewEdit

Hello. Capellan Civil War is done. If it is ok, I will leave it as is. Kindly comment if additional citations are needed. I can supply them. --Aldous (talk) 17:43, 10 February 2014 (PST)

Having read through the article, I think you have the bulk of a good article there. I like that you've deliberately highlighted where canon sources conflict or contradict each other - it's all too easy to end up with Sarna being blamed for inaccuracies when one source is used in an article and a contradictory source isn't. There are a small number of problems with the article, though:
1 - The article isn't in a consistent tense; it keeps switching back and forth between past tense and present tense. Ideally, everything on Sarna should be in the past tense, both for consistency and to reflect Sarna representing a historical record, rather than an ongoing commentary.
2 - You have a number of WarShips listed as being involved in the Civil War, but no citations for them. There's also a ground unit missing a citation. Ideally, I'd hope to work backward from the Civil War article to be able to either update or create the individual WarShip articles for each ship.
3 - You've got a couple of typos that recur but which I don't think are likely to be picked up by most spellcheckers - the two that jumped out at me were "Kai Allard Liao" rather than "Kai Allard-Liao" and "St. Ives Lances" rather than "St. Ives Lancers".
I think you've done some good work and I think the more citations there are, the better - if you've been struggling to keep everything in a consistent tense, it migh tbe worth asking BobTheZombie or Nuclear-Fridge to work through the article with you, as they're both very sharp when it comes to consistent editing. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:20, 11 February 2014 (PST)
Ok. I will correct.--Aldous (talk) 06:02, 11 February 2014 (PST)

Infobox Yearlisting ProblemsEdit

Hi BrokeMenemoic, thanks for looking into the infobox problems. Its been problem/pain for me along while now. -- Wrangler (talk) 17:52, 17 February 2014 (PST)

I've dropped some more code examples on your talk page to see if I've identified the problem - can you let me know if it helps? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:09, 18 February 2014 (PST)

St. Ives FirebombingEdit

Where does it state that Tian-Tan was firebombed? I remember reading it but can't remember where.--Aldous (talk) 18:44, 17 February 2014 (PST)

I can have a dig around, but I don't remember the incident - can you remember who bombed St. Ives and why? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:10, 18 February 2014 (PST)
WoB during the Jihad. I found articles that mention the city burning but not found one that said firebombed.--Aldous (talk) 00:18, 18 February 2014 (PST)
I've checked the books I have soft copies of at work, and I can't find any references to firebombing. The only Jihad-era books I don't have a soft copy of here are Masters & Minions: The StarCorps Dossiers, the Chaos Campaign and the various Jihad Turning Points, which I can check when I get home, but I can't see anything at the moment. It'd be worth checking with Frabby to see if the attack has been written up as a BattleCorps scenario at some point, too. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:56, 18 February 2014 (PST)
You should check the WizKids Dark Age stuff too.--Aldous (talk) 02:17, 18 February 2014 (PST)
I've checked all of my books, and the closest that anything comes to the idea of firebombing on St. Ives is the Touring the Stars product, which talks about "Tian-tin":
A tropical wind blows through the city streets of Tian-tin, warmed by a yellow sun that appears almost ghostly in the overcast sky. The capital of St. Ives is a busy metropolis, a sea of traffic that never stops, even well into the night. Rising proudly over the city, a magnificent palace dome, surrounded by lush gardens of native flora, and flanked by elegant spires, stands the ancestral home of the Allard-Liaos, heirs to the St. Ives Commonality.

If one looks closer, at the magnificent stone walls that separate the palace from the rest of the city, the telltale signs of carbon scorching on some of the rock become noticeable. Rusty grooves on the odd stone here and there hint at a previous life in some other structure, every one a memorial. It is said that Duke Kai Allard-Liao himself approved the use of the rubble as a major part of the rebuilding of the palace wall, and even the palace itself. Each stone used in this construction project, it is said, represents a building or life lost in the destruction of the city at the peak of the Word of Blake Jihad.

  — Touring the Stars, PDF version, Volume XX, p. 39
Several other sourcebooks mention the attack on St. Ives, but not in any detail other than talking about it being heavily damaging. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 09:46, 18 February 2014 (PST)

Tactics section in Brigade articlesEdit

Do we need to have tactics discussed in Brigade articles? Seems to make sense to remove them.--Aldous (talk) 18:44, 17 February 2014 (PST)

Some brigades may have defined tactics based on their role - possibly something we'll see as the Field Report 2765 series carries on. I'm used to including the field because it's a part of the standard template for military units... I'd suggest starting a conversation on the Military Units Project page to see what people think about removing it from higher-level formations: BattleTechWiki talk:Project Military Commands - I think we're unlikely to see many brigades outside the SLDF with defined tactics because of the scale at which they operate, but it's one of those things that's worth getting a range of opinions on. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:18, 18 February 2014 (PST)

Missing unit articleEdit

Hi, if you found time, can you create the 3rd Fronc Cuirassiers and Fourth Citizen's Militia, Taurian Pride and 3rd Taurian Pride article, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 09:38, 21 February 2014 (PST)

FWL PlanetsEdit

Can you look on the planet Deschenes i updated the owner history, but iam not sure if the name Independent world from [3081] - 3085 is correct or we use the name Former Free Worlds Leage, any idea.--Doneve (talk) 09:06, 24 February 2014 (PST)

Independent world is right, based on what we agreed a few years ago - I think it was because of the former FWL worlds that we ended up with the independent worlds category, because Periphery was a bit of a tricky term, and we didn't know with a lot of the worlds whether they should count as independent or Periphery worlds, with some going back and forth depending on the era. I'd stick with independent world, myself.
It's great to have you back on here, btw   BrokenMnemonic (talk) 09:29, 24 February 2014 (PST)
Thanks.--Doneve (talk) 09:37, 24 February 2014 (PST)

Silly QuestionEdit

What do you call it when a published information is in error? Something that may be corrected in an errata later? On p.206 of FM: 3145, there is an obvious mistake but I forget the one word normally used for it. Help?--Aldous (talk) 22:37, 24 February 2014 (PST)

I usually call it an error, an inconsistency or a conflict in canon - I've not got a copy of FM:3145 at work, but if you can give me the context I can check the errata thread over on the CGL forum (if it's in the thread, it's definitely errata) or use the Ask The Writers forum to try and get an official ruling. Most of the questions linked in my user page are where I'm trying to clarify things that look incorrect... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:28, 25 February 2014 (PST)
4th Tikonov Guards special ability. I think its meant to be another regiment.--Aldous (talk) 01:09, 25 February 2014 (PST)
Would you like me to put up an Ask The Writers question when I get home tonight? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:17, 25 February 2014 (PST)
Sure.--Aldous (talk) 10:15, 25 February 2014 (PST)
MadCapellan confirmed here that it's a typo, and the rules section on p. 206 is for the Fourth Liao Guards, not the Fourth Tikonov Guards. He's added a note to the official errata accordingly - until a reprint comes out in the future, you can use his ATW response as a reference link to leave a note in the Fourth Tikonov's notes explaining why the rules aren't there, and to add them to the Fourth Liao Guards instead. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:08, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Awards LogEdit

Rev used to keep a log of awards given throughout the year to use as a reference when it comes to the Founders Awards each year - not that I'm all modly, I suppose it'd be a sensible idea to do the same thing.

20-Feb-2014 All Purpose Award (I) - Aldous - St. Ives
27-Feb-2014 All Purpose Award (I) - Panzergraf - Adding to individual ship articles
27-Feb-2014 Random Act of Appreciation (I) - Silverwolfsigil - First dozen spelling fixes


Hi, do you have heard from a Federated Suns planet that is called Vincente, i found the name in FM:3145 p. 182. I checked some maps but i cant found it!--Doneve (talk) 09:27, 27 February 2014 (PST)

The world that Harlock's Warriors are stationed on? I can't find it anywhere either - I'll go and ask about it on the forum. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 09:43, 27 February 2014 (PST)
I worked out what's going on - it's a typo. If you search FM:3145 for "Harlock's Warriors", they show up on one of the maps as being on Vicente in the Federated Suns.BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:32, 27 February 2014 (PST)
Ah ha, but its a little bit curiouse, i used the search bar but they don't give me [Vicente], now i used the bar again and i found the planet ;), but thanks for the info.--Doneve (talk) 13:27, 27 February 2014 (PST)
I had a few issues searching for it as well, oddly. I'd swear it wasn't until the second time I checked through both files for Harlock's Warriors that they appeared on the map. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:32, 27 February 2014 (PST)


I see you've added the BattleCorps logo to The Battle Corps merc unit. It is the logo from the BC website. Has this canonically been established as the logo for the merc unit? Frabby (talk) 02:50, 28 February 2014 (PST)

I don't know about the Battle Corps website, but it's the logo for the Battle Corps Legion from Jihad Turning Points: Hesperus II, which I copied out of the JTP, pasted into Photofiltre and recoloured slightly to remove the black background (a graphics artifact from the PDF). It's definitely the unit logo, at least as far as the JTP is concerned. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 03:01, 28 February 2014 (PST)



You've taken to this Admin thing like a duck to water. Good work. And thanks for your work in updating a Source that needed updates item. Please add this to your awards board.  . --Mbear(talk) 03:26, 28 February 2014 (PST)

Thank you   I've been pottering with the articles that need updates for a few days because work's a bit busy, and it's easier to do a few small updates around work than to try and do some of the longer articles. I didn't expect work to be this busy for this long - I've still got two big Reunification War articles to write up yet. I hope I don't screw the Admin thing up too badly... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 08:10, 28 February 2014 (PST)
Just saw your comment about not screwing up the Admin thing. That's no problem. If in doubt, take no action.  --Mbear(talk) 04:19, 14 March 2014 (PDT)
Phew, that's a relief - I'm awesome at doing nothing. I could earn awards!   BrokenMnemonic (talk) 04:24, 14 March 2014 (PDT)

Something I NoticedEdit

On the official BT forums I saw some people discussing intro years of Clan XL engines, FF armor, and Endo-steel frames, and noticed that we don't have any of that info here. Perhaps it would good to look into and confirm.

Additionally, I noticed that New Canton has two 3067 entrees in the owner history, and after digging, I found out that you added the second 3067 date. Could you correct what date this is? Maybe it should read 3077? -BobTheZombie (talk) 15:42, 4 March 2014 (PST)

Hi Bob,
Thanks for flagging up the issue with New Canton's owner history - digging back through my notes, it looks like I got confused when doing the bulk update of all the Capellan worlds from Handbook: House Liao (that's back when I was adding all the various dead worlds onto Sarna, so I was going a bit planet-happy). I've corrected it.
I've had a look at the rulebooks, and the Techmanual doesn't list specific intro dates for the Clan versions of XL engines, Endo Steel and Ferro-Fibrous armour. For those technologies, the Techmanual has the intro date for the original tech (usually a Terran Hegemony date), plus the date the tech became extinct in the Inner Sphere, and the date it was then reintroduced - I'd guess that the Techmanual is simply treating the Clan iterations as being refinements of the original, rather than new technology.
I've taken a look through Historical: Op Klondike and Era Digest: Golden Century, the two historical texts I'm aware of that deal with the evolution of Clan technology, and while one has listings for when the prototype versions of Clan weapons appeared and the second lists the intro dates of the final, current versions of Clan weapons, neither mentions intro dates for Clan construction technologies, nor are there prototype versions of any of the construction materials. At a guess, I'd say the reason we don't have dates listed here on Sarna is that they've not been published, or if they have been published, it's somewhere pretty obscure. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:41, 5 March 2014 (PST)
Thanks for fixing the New Canton page; I thought that that was what had happened. For the technology; the people on the forum said that the earliest introduction they could find was 2827/2828, so it may be around that date. -BobTheZombie (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2014 (PST)
Did any of them cite a source, or were they working from the introduction dates of the earliest 'Mechs/fighters with ay of those components? If they identified a source, we can get the articles cited from that. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:23, 5 March 2014 (PST)
This is what they came up with:
Clan FF - 2828
Clan ES - 2828
Clan XL - 2827
Marauder IIC with Clan ES and Clan FF is from 2828, Kraken with Clan XL is 2827.
They were going by earliest intro, so that may or may not help. -BobTheZombie (talk) 12:34, 5 March 2014 (PST)

Assistance Appreciated AwardEdit

Hey BM, I have taken the liberty of giving you a Assistance Appreciated Award for your sterling service in helping out with the situation dealing with House Military Layouts. I am not always the most diplomatic of chaps and was fully prepared to take off over it and you stepped in and calmly and efficiently presented a very good idea and dealt with things. --Dmon (talk) 18:14, 13 March 2014 (PDT)

Hi Dmon,
Are you sure you mean me? I'm thinking you might be thinking of Mbear? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:03, 14 March 2014 (PDT)
You know what? I just made a total asshat of myself again, I really should not be allowed out in public.. BobTheZombie is who I wanted... erm.. I will retract that award and go give it to the correct person if you are ok with that, as much as I appreciate your assistance in pointing out my error :-/ --Dmon (talk) 01:55, 14 March 2014 (PDT)
I'm fine with that   Credit where credit's due after all. Although I might have to be more helpful to people in the future and see if i can pick up an assistance award legitimately - after all, I don't have one of those yet   I'm having Red Bull with my breakfast, if you need some caffeine? I certainly need it to see clearly this early on a Friday morning... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 02:02, 14 March 2014 (PDT)
Haha, indeed it is far to early and this cup of tea obviously far from potent enough. Luckily I am not in work until tomorrow night so I may well just go back to bed and catch up on that sleep I have been missing. Cheers for the good humour.. Oh yeah I can grant you an award for that instead ;-p --Dmon (talk) 02:24, 14 March 2014 (PDT)
Oooh, I don't have one of those - shiny! Thank you!   BrokenMnemonic (talk) 04:28, 14 March 2014 (PDT)

New IdeaEdit

Hy BM. A new idea by myself, i want to create a template like the Rules section [div class="gamerules"] but in red on some pages for the notes section to highlight some errata or inconsistence thinks there descriped in the notes section and so on, and highlighte some answered questions from the BT forum, is this a good idea, i want to involve Mbear to this, any thoughts.--Doneve (talk) 17:29, 23 March 2014 (PDT)

Hy Doneve,
Would you want the box to highlight canon inconsistencies where we've got two canon sources that contradict each other, or to highlight comments and rulings from TPTB, or both? I think it's a good idea, but red is associated with warnings - it's only really used on here for warning people who're breaking rules and for marking out fanon entries - so I'd be tempted to make it a different color. I don't know much about the div class templates like the gamerules one, and I've never tried making one - my first thought is, would it be something that we could do using tags like those Frabby made up to mark Apocryphal detail within an article? I know that I like to include answers and comments from TPTB in the article itself in the notes page, whereas Frabby prefers to put the detail in the talk page, so there might be a difference of opinion over whether the template is needed or not. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:45, 24 March 2014 (PDT)
Ok, i copy this talk to Mbear's talk page.--Doneve (talk) 04:05, 24 March 2014 (PDT)
Adding a class or section like that is possible, but we need to talk to NicJ to make that happen. BrokenMnemonic is right, red we usually use for CRITICAL or ERROR conditions so we don't want to use that. I'd look at Frabby's Apocryphal stuff as a model for this.
I'm not clear on what you're trying to achieve with this project though. Can you provide an example? Thanks!--Mbear(talk) 07:38, 24 March 2014 (PDT)


I'm extremely sorry if I messed up your edits. I've had that happen to me too. Maybe you could put the "Edit in progress" ( {inuse} ) tag at the top? -BobTheZombie (talk) 06:39, 31 March 2014 (PDT)

I was in a bit of a bad mood yesterday when I wrote my initial comment (my post and 30 others in my area at work are all being removed in 12 months time) and I deleted my comment after making it, because I decided I was being grumpy when I shouldn't be. I actually thought I'd added the WIP template to the article, but I was getting it and the FPF article mixed up. I was a bit annoyed with the sectionstub template going into the article, though - given that it's an article I'm still writing at the moment, it didn't need the reminder, so it felt like a criticism of how I was writing the article. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but yesterday was a pretty rough day for everyone in the office. Not that I edit sometimes while I'm at work or anything...BrokenMnemonic (talk) 04:56, 1 April 2014 (PDT)
Sorry to hear about that man... I saw the reverted change to my page and felt kinda bad; I've had that happen more than a few times after some detailed proofreading of long pages, and just had to leave it (the interrupted edits, I mean). I just add sectionstub tags out of habit to fill the sections, so I'm sorry that I messed it up; I didn't mean to convey the sentiment that you weren't doing a good job, so I'm sorry about that too. I had no idea that you were trying to work right at that moment. I wish you the best in your employment, good sir. -BobTheZombie (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2014 (PDT)

Clan Protectorate MilitaryEdit

Hy man, hope all is well. I have a question about the Clan Protectorate Military, i want to create some missing units from FM:3145, but the question is in which category i put the various clan and other units? I know i add in the infobox the Clan Protectorate Military but which category i give to the units.--Doneve (talk) 13:20, 3 April 2014 (PDT)

Well, work's gone downhill - I need to find a new job in the Department in the next year or so, but otherwise life's ok. One of my brothers is even getting married   I hope you're well?
I've been reading up on the Clan Protectorate. It's a bit of a tricky one. I think maybe the best thing to do is categorise the units based on their affiliation in 3145; the Clan Protectorate was accepted into the Free Worlds League as a sovereign province according to p. 97, which gives it the same status as the Rim Commonality or the Duchy of Tamarind-Abbey - it's now a province within the Free Worlds League, so I think it's best to use the Free Worlds League Military Commands category. The Clan Protectorate Military is like the Fusiliers of Oriente Brigade - it's a FWLM brigade affiliated with a particular province and a slightly odd unit makeup. Well, it's got Spirit Cat forces in it... a very odd unit makeup   Does that seem like a reasonable idea? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:34, 3 April 2014 (PDT)
Sorry about to hear from your job! Yep all is well in my madness world, a lot of work, "sick" my sarna count goes down, some trouble at home and work and so on son. You're right with the category thanks.--Doneve (talk) 13:58, 3 April 2014 (PDT)

CBT TablesEdit

Good afternoon; could you quick check and make sure that I got the water modifier right on the CBT Tables page? It was wrong at first. -BobTheZombie (talk) 12:42, 7 April 2014 (PDT)

Good evening! I've just dug out my copy of Total Warfare (I'm using the edition updated in Oct '13) and it states that 'Mechs standing in Level 1 water receive Partial Cover on page 109; it also states on page 109 that units apply a +1 modifier to the to-hit roll when shooting at 'Mechs with Partial Cover. So, standing in water doesn't generate a 'Mech the +1 modifier itself - it earns the +1 modifier by gaining Partial Cover from standing in the water. Does that make sense? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:15, 7 April 2014 (PDT)
Okay, yes that does make sense - I'll make the change; thanks for the clarification, because I was talking with some German folks over at another forum and the translation was difficult to get the point across, but we're making due. Thanks once again. -BobTheZombie (talk) 14:15, 7 April 2014 (PDT)
Might it be worth enlisting help from Frabby or Doneve if there are language issues? Both are fluent in German. I'd offer to help, but about the best I can do in German is ordering beer or asking for a return train ticket... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 23:32, 7 April 2014 (PDT)
Well, they are using english with me thankfully, but certain words don't translate as well and it sometimes can get confusing. It should be fine, but I can ask them if it gets complicated. -BobTheZombie (talk) 07:07, 8 April 2014 (PDT)

Movement SpeedsEdit

Hello once again; I received another request, this time to include the board game speed (4/6, 3/4, etc.) along with the kph speed on each unit's article. I don't have the means to check these (i.e. the sources), so if we'd go ahead with it I wouldn't be able to help much. What are your thoughts on this? -BobTheZombie (talk) 15:14, 8 April 2014 (PDT)

Hi Bob,
I've only been on the wiki for a couple of years, and the templates for unit articles predate me by a long way. My gut instinct is that some details aren't included in articles, like movement speeds in hex terms, details of crit-loading, specifics on armour points on location, etc, because including the detail would push Sarna over the line into copyright infringement by beginning to provide a level of detail that would make purchasing official products like Tech Readouts and Record Sheets, which would in turn force CGL to shut us down. That's just an educated guess on my part though - I'll go and pose the question at the other mods to find out what they think. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 02:21, 9 April 2014 (PDT)
Another thing they brought up was the possibility of adding armor point listings for each of the 'Mechs (maybe the variants?), but I think that that might also fall under the "too in depth" heading and causing copyright infringement stuff. I dunno. Either way I couldn't help much with that either... -BobTheZombie (talk) 06:45, 9 April 2014 (PDT)
Again, I think that's straying into the realms of removing the need for people to purchase Record Sheet books or TROs. I can't speak for every editor, but I know when I put in the details for a variant I include how much armour has been added/removed in terms of tonnage, and areas that've seen the armour increased/decreased, but not in enough detail that it negates the Record Sheets or TROs. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 09:03, 9 April 2014 (PDT)

63rd Provisional Garrison Cluster (Clan Ghost Bear)Edit


I sneezed while looking at the recent changes page and accidentally rolled back your changes to the 63rd Provisional Garrison Cluster (Clan Ghost Bear) page. I think I've got them back in place by rolling back my rollback, but I'd appreciate it if you would double check that I've fixed my mistake. Sorry about that and Thanks!--Mbear(talk) 10:49, 14 April 2014 (PDT)

It looks like everything's back - no worries   BrokenMnemonic (talk) 03:47, 16 April 2014 (PDT)


Hey BM, would you be able to finish the thingy here so that I can tell the people on the forum that it's been fixed? Thanks for any help. -BobTheZombie (talk) 11:11, 18 July 2014 (PDT)

OK, I've dug out the books and fixed that entry. Unfortuntely, it does mean I need to do some followup work elsewhere - I need to update the Twenty-second Avalon Hussars article, the First Succession Wars and history of the Federated Suns articles (there's a direct reference to the start of the Combine invasion in 2787, so that should be cited) and in the longer term I need to finish updating the 60-80 Hegemony worlds that got annexed and the 75 or so worlds that were jointly administered to show that their ownership changed, but I'll just have to plod away at those. I've been datamining Field Report 2765: Federated Suns because I'm close to having mined everything out of that book for Sarna, but I'll get back to the other changes at some point. I have my own weird mental order for getting things done, mixed with a dash of whimsy based on what peaks my attention in the time I get available for editing, so it might take me a little while... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 14:48, 18 July 2014 (PDT)
Thanks man! I don't mean to rush you; I'm just thankful that you have all these sources and can data mine so much. Here, take an award, because you haven't gotten one in a while and you're a great help:   . -BobTheZombie (talk) 15:34, 18 July 2014 (PDT)
Thank you, that's very kind. Doneve's usually great at chasing down data sources - I've always asked him if there are things that I couldn't find - but he hasn't been on in a while now, and I'm getting a bit worried. Hope he's ok. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 02:22, 20 July 2014 (PDT)

System coordinatesEdit

Afternoon/evening, BM:
A non-Sarna but BT-freak friend of mine is working on updating/increasing the coordinates in the MekHQ program and he's been using the coordinates from the articles. I told him the coords with the superscript-e were the most reliable (over the original ones). Do you know if the text file linked at BattleTechWiki:System_coordinates#Extrapolation is the most up-to-date, or do you have something more inclusive?

Thanks! --Revanche (talk|contribs) 15:39, 21 July 2014 (PDT)

Hello! How're you? I've got a link to the file I'm using, which I believe is the most up to date, but I've only got it on my PC at home because it's in Volt or BadSyntax's mediafire directory. I'll send you the link as soon as I get home. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 23:48, 21 July 2014 (PDT)
Ok, I think this is the final version - it's certainly the one I've been using up til now: Planets.txt BrokenMnemonic (talk) 10:11, 22 July 2014 (PDT)
I'm doing well, though still bereft of all the time I want and/or deserve. ;) And you?
You are 'da' man! Thank you very much. My Kiwi friend might really appreciate the ownership data even more. Volt deserves significant accolades, too. I'll look at updating that extrapolation page to reflect his continuing contributions.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 14:40, 22 July 2014 (PDT)
I'm going slightly mad from the changes at work - "You're now a new unique trading entity! It's a bright new future! You're in control of your own destiny! Now, 10% manpower reduction across the workforce to be implemented immediately so that we can hire more strategic consultants." I'm used to a certain degreee of deranged insanity but my tolerance for it seems to have dropped over the years. Still, only 27 years to go...
I don't have as much time as I used to for Sarna, which is frustrating - there's a lot more I want to get done here, but the work I've been doing helping with VidUKon has taken more time than it used to, so I'm stuck working in depressingly small chunks of time, but I bet I'd find it weird if I suddenly had more time on my hands   I'm worried about Doneve though - he commented on here that he was going back into hospital for what must be at least the third time, and whereas he's always been present on here before, even at a very minor level, it's been complete comms silence from him ever since. I hope he's ok.
Anyway, I hope the mapping info and ownership detail is handy - I remember Volt and BadSyntax talking about how something meant their might be a very small error they hadn't noticed before in the numbers, but I think the margin of error was so small - I have it in my head that it was at the 0.02 light year level - that in comparison to what was in place before, it's basically insignificant. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:20, 23 July 2014 (PDT)
I can only imagine how that insecurity must feel. I have a taste developing, as my forced retirement is now clearly 3 1/2 years out and I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up! My wife found herself suddenly retired when they changed the law for female cops in Brazil this May; it's good news because she gets almost full retirement (as in 97% of top takehome pay...crazy), but I was forced to realize that our two pensions won't support maintain us where we are now, so it looks like I need to decide what I want/need to do next and start aiming for it. BUT...that's not the same as not knowing what's going to happen. So, feels, mate.
Thanks for letting me know about Doneve. I'll reach out via email and will let you know what I hear.
>"0.02 light year level... basically insignificant" Tell that to the Voyager spacecrafts!--Revanche (talk|contribs) 16:31, 23 July 2014 (PDT)
I hope you hear something back from Doneve - I kept telling him that he should stop getting ill so that he could flirt with nurses, but I've seen him rack up 500+ edits a day from his hospital bed before. To hear absolutely nothing for more than a month really isn't like him...
I'm impressed that you married a woman who's clearly destined to ensure you're a kept man   I can completely sympathise with not knowing what you want to do when you grow up - I took the first job I could 17 years ago, thinking "it'll be good to have money coming in until I decide what I want to do..." and I still have no idea what I want to do! Apparently I'm now enjoying the best years of my life, where I've balanced family and home with work and ambitions and have steadily increasing disposable income. Instead, I've been through six major changes and restructurings in eight years, with at least two more coming in the next two years, all of which contain the threat that I could be laid off. If I could pay the mortgage by delivering pizza or working at the cinema, I'd be willing to do that at this point...
Voyager can complain all it likes - Star Trek taught me that no matter hwere you end up, every planet is mysteriously inhabited by green bipedal alien slave girl dancers who look like Marisa Tomei. Who needs to worry about minor distance issues?   BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:11, 24 July 2014 (PDT)
I meant the two Voyagers that are (just) now leaving the solar system. I don't think they're out of the hundredths of a lightyear yet.
[sigh] Marissa
No word from him yet. I wonder if countryman Frabby might have additional means of finding him.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 19:26, 24 July 2014 (PDT)
Hello folks! so sorry for being quiet all this time. I have been busy with work. The most up-to-date file is on my dropbox folder, since it is much simpler to use than the oh-so-big (that's what she said) mediafire. The link is here. And... from this data, I am able to make this. As usual, the xlsx file is still a work in progress for as long as we still do not have HB:HK and explicit data from before 2571-Volt (talk) 21:42, 24 July 2014 (PDT)
Thank you for the link! I'll download a fresh copy later today - I've been putting off updating the nearest neighbours tables in every planet article for the last couple of years, but sooner or later I'm going to have to bite the bullet and do it. I really wish we could also get some complete Inner Sphere maps for significant dates prior to 2571, but I think we're never likely to see them because of the difficulty of checking and compiling them compared to the small number of people like us who'd love them to bits and promise to look after them forever... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:02, 25 July 2014 (PDT)
I'm currently reading through the housebooks and I've already found some discrepancies against the pre-2571 sectional maps and even on the 2596 map. Turns out in 2596 the DC Capital World should STILL be New Samarkand as Luthien was still an agricultural world at this time, and construction of Imperial City only begain with the announcement in 2617 (not 2619 as stated in the timeline and the Luthien articles-Volt (talk) 01:56, 25 July 2014 (PDT)
It's worth checking against the Handbooks as well as the House Books, as I've found discrepancies between the two in the past... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 02:21, 25 July 2014 (PDT)
Quite probable. Would be easier if there was a HB:HK to compare the HK:DC book with. I'm also getting conflicts with the Dark Age: Republic Worlds (3130) PDF file. I'll go over the entries in detail in the coming days but Cebalrai appears to have existed as early as the Age of War but only appeared on maps starting 2750 so that's something to consider.-Volt (talk) 02:57, 25 July 2014 (PDT)
I found another world like that at one point - I can't remember which one (although I'll have logged the question somewhere) but the explanation I had from, I think, Øystein, was that some worlds got blown off the map/depopulated in the Age of War and were then re-colonised during the Star League era. I've not seen many like that, but I know I've found at least one... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 03:07, 25 July 2014 (PDT)
Works for me, since the article isn't explicit in stating whether or not the system was habitable in 2571 and 2596 and didn't say what ear it was colonized I'll just leave it as-is.-Volt (talk) 03:32, 25 July 2014 (PDT)
I don't have an email address for Doneve, but I'm on another forum that he frequents... I haven't seen him post in ages, but I'll check and see when he last logged in there. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:02, 25 July 2014 (PDT)
I wrote him through the 'email this user' function here, a few days ago. That has worked in the past.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 05:59, 26 July 2014 (PDT)
Let's hope for the best then. I don't know anything about him beyond what 's on Sarna. Frabby (talk) 16:30, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

When citing the BT forum...Edit

Hi BM, kudos for being on the forefront of obtaining official clarifications from the authors/lead developers via the BT forums. However, I do have a request: Currently, you're linking to relevant forum entries in your references. However, relying on the existence of external sites is problematic. Case in point, the CBT forum which went unter a couple of years ago, with around six months' worth of content irrevocably lost and the rest only available from backup for a year or so before the archive was wiped. May I thus request that you copy relevat content, especially official statements/clarifications pertaining to an article, into the article talk page to save them and keep all the relevant info on Sarna (with a reference to to the original web source for the saved content). Example: Talk:Kaznejoy. Frabby (talk) 00:54, 1 August 2014 (PDT)

Hi Frabby,
I already do this - c.f. articles like the Hotspur, for example, although I put the quotes into the notes section to make them more obvious to casual readers unless the off-site source is extensive, in which case I use a talk page summary with a list of articles.
The only reason I haven't done this yet for the article on Kaufermann is because I need to go through the four threads on the BattleTech forum that relate to Bayeux/Kaufermann and compile the list of quotes, indicating in particular which comments are from the Ask The Writers forum and which are from the same writer/developer but from forums outside the Ask The Writers forum, which have a lower canonical status. It's more complicated with Kaufermann because the writer a) accepted that having two planets with the same name was wrong, b) indicated which name was in error, c) changed the name of the other planet in an apparent error, d) didn't confirm that the change at c) was an error, but then changed the name of the other planet in a subsequent map. I haven't had time yet this week to write that up coherently, which is why I've only got the link to the threads in the Kaufermann article at the moment to serve as bookmarks.
I'm assuming that it's Kaufermann that's prompted your comment, obviously... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:10, 1 August 2014 (PDT)
I see you're on top of the situation then. Very good, continue. :) (Yes, it was about Kaufermann.) Frabby (talk) 05:40, 1 August 2014 (PDT)
I'm the king of quoting from the Ask The Writers forum   I wanted to wait for it to be quiet to write up the full detail on Kaufermann, though. I have some issues with quoting as definitive statements things developers/writers have said outside of the ATW/ATD forums. I also need to check which maps Kaufermann was shown as Bayeux on, for completeness, and that's... kind of boring. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 11:34, 1 August 2014 (PDT)

Mark Creuset questionEdit

Is Mark Creuset really worthy of his own article? Thanks. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 10:16, 2 August 2014 (PDT)

Well, according to the Biographies Page, the goals of the project are:
  • Catalogue every character introduced into BattleTech
  • Catalogue each real world person that has had a hand in shaping official BattleTech
So... yes? Although Creuset also needs the notes from the thread about FR2765:FS where the person responsible for creating the character in another fanwork talks about having him canonised via this book. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 11:41, 2 August 2014 (PDT)

Unit DescriptionsEdit

Can you ready my response to your request about the Unit Descriptions? -- Wrangler (talk) 11:03, 2 August 2014 (PDT)


Hi Dude, hope all is well with you, iam back on sarna next week, when i can leave the hospital, i had two hard month, but now all is ok :).--Doneve (talk) 05:02, 3 August 2014 (PDT)

Doneve! I was starting to send out search parties looking for you, with vague instructions about searching every hospital in Germany for a man surrounded by so many cute nurses he doesn't want to leave. I'm very relieved to hear from you. And it'll be great to have you back! BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:31, 3 August 2014 (PDT)
Hey Doneve! Welcome back! Were you pretending to be sick again so that you can play with the little nurses, or were you trying to get cybernetic implants and take down the Clans all by yourself?-Volt (talk) 18:46, 3 August 2014 (PDT)
Holy crap! Damn, really scared us! How are you?!--Revanche (talk|contribs) 15:40, 4 August 2014 (PDT)



I want to thank you for stepping in and helping with the Sources Needing Updates page. I haven't done anything there for a while, mostly because I was just overwhelmed. Thanks for stepping up and helping out.--Mbear(talk) 04:09, 2 October 2014 (PDT)

Hi Mbear,
You sounded pretty burned out with it, and I wanted to pitch in and give you a bit of support. I've only gone through the first 400 or so entries so far, and I can see why you're struggling so much with it - I always knew it was a Sisyphean task, but I hadn't appreciated just how demoralizing it is to spend all my free time in a day clearing half a dozen articles from a list just to have someone add a half-dozen new update needed tags, or to have someone slap another update needed tag on an article I'd just cleared. It really doesn't help that some of the updates are monumental - like updating the Capellan Confederation page based on Handbook: House Liao - or, much more annoyingly, coming across a fair number of the update needed tags where the amount of information in the source is so minimal it adds a sentence at most to an article.
I was going to do more this morning, but I hit the Fox Khanate page, which needed an update, and spotted it had WarShips in it, and then I started trying to work out where they'd come from, and then I got distracted by WarShip articles... but I'll get back on it as soon as I've fiddled with the WarShip articles a bit. I think I'm managing to clear about one in eight articles, which isn't a great turn rate, but I'm hoping I can get the list down to 1000-1100 reasonably quickly. I should maybe man up and spend a week sitting in front of Handbook House Marik/House Marik (TFWL) to populate the stub articles on Captain-Generals (and similarly for First Princes) but I can't quite face it yet, even though it would clear another dozen articles each... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 04:23, 2 October 2014 (PDT)
Hey it's no problem. I was totally burnt out on this. There are some editors who tag the articles fully intending to come back and add the information...but then never do for some reason. That's what really sucked my motivation. And the issue with being distracted by various articles isn't unique to you either. ;)--Mbear(talk) 07:41, 8 October 2014 (PDT)

Updates NeededEdit

Hi Mbear,
Over the next few days I'll try and get the updates done towards the end of the list - there are a bunch of SLDF Corps and ROTS units in the X's that need updates from Field Manuals, which I can peck away at while I'm at work. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:55, 7 October 2014 (PDT)

Sounds good!--Mbear(talk) 04:55, 8 October 2014 (PDT)
How about I finish off the Hastati Sentinels and leave the rest for you to work on?--Mbear(talk) 06:06, 8 October 2014 (PDT)
Sounds like a plan! I was editing in slow time last night, so having gone to the end of the list to work backwards, I didn't spot that you'd started work on the Hastati Sentinels before I commented on your talk page. I'm not sure how much I'll get done this weekend (depends on the hotel wifi) but I'll keep pottering away. The list is slowly moving downwards, which is a relief... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 06:21, 8 October 2014 (PDT)
Yes it is. The Hastati Sentinels are done. I'm kind of scared though, because the SLDF units listed on Updates Needed are actually just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of the Corps and Division level entries need to be updated with FM:SLDF info. :)--Mbear(talk) 07:39, 8 October 2014 (PDT)
OK. Just read your note on my talk page and I have only one thing to say: You just had to go tempting fate, didn't you?   --Mbear(talk) 05:10, 15 October 2014 (PDT)
Don't look now, but you're about to break through 1,050 updates needed. That'll be an eighth of the way through. I'm sorry I'm not getting more done to help - work's not only crazy, they moved where I sit, and it's a damn sight harder to check books and edit sneakily during the day, which cuts down on my editing time. I'll keep plugging away, though. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:54, 22 October 2014 (PDT)
No problem at all. I'm just glad someone stepped up to help. It felt like I was constantly behind the eight ball on that.--Mbear(talk) 04:58, 23 October 2014 (PDT)
At least when ClanWolverine101 tags the articles, he usually puts the page numbers in the history page too. That makes it easier to get to the topic quickly.--Mbear(talk) 06:32, 11 November 2014 (PST)

Manual of StyleEdit

Hi BM, a word of advice: According to the BattleCorps Manual of Style, which we chose to adopt for this wiki, "aerospace fighter" is spelled thusly (i.e. with all downcase letters). Frabby (talk) 04:27, 13 October 2014 (PDT)

My new plan for updates neededEdit

Hey, I'm going to start working on sources that are tagged with 4th Succession War Scenarios vol 1. Will that cause any problems for you?--Mbear(talk) 07:20, 30 October 2014 (PDT)

Hiya, that doesn't cause me any problems. I have the Historicals in electronic format, but I don't have any of the scenarios handy for referencing at work, so things like that and the unit-specific sourcebooks are things I can normally only dig out at work. In the longer term, I'd like to work through the two volumes of the Fourth Succession War NAIS Atlas and update Sarna with everything in them, but that's feeling a bit like a pipe dream... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 07:50, 30 October 2014 (PDT)
Hey, it's good to have a dream! We should live in hope.--Mbear(talk) 08:02, 30 October 2014 (PDT)
Nah, I tried living in hope, but then Alyssa Milano went and got married to someone else...   BrokenMnemonic (talk) 08:13, 30 October 2014 (PDT)
Isn't that always the way it goes? Sorry man.
I've got most of the 4SW Scenario updates made. The only two things I haven't updated are people and a few systems (mostly because the systems have a lot of sources and I don't really want to do them). So I'm going to move on to something else.--Mbear(talk) 12:26, 30 October 2014 (PDT)
Blimey, you went through that lot fast. I look like such a slacker   I'm slogging through planet and system updates and people where I can, but it's a pain when they have five or six different update needed tags on them. I was sure we'd be close to breaking through 1,000 updates needed by now, but either we're going slowly or someone's adding more tags... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:32, 31 October 2014 (PDT)
Time to come clean: I actually go through the Update Needed sources, copy the update sources they need, paste them into an Excel spreadsheet, and print it off. So I can see what sources need updates from what products fairly quickly. That's the only reason I moved through them so quickly.
And ClanWolverine101 is adding Update Needed tags. He does it a lot.--Mbear(talk) 03:24, 31 October 2014 (PDT)
That's much faster than my version of dealing with them, which is generally to go through them one at a time looking for things I think I have the sources, time and patience to update.
Is there any way we could modify the template to add categories or some other mechanism to make it easy to see quickly which articles need to be updated by source? I'm guessing probably not without rewriting all of the update needed tags.
I'd love to see a graph detailing the number of update needed tags someone leaves compared to the number they action and remove...
Do you have a handy list of planets that need updating from Dark Age Republic Worlds 3130? I like doing planet articles, but it's a pain to search for and if I'm going to be going through a book a page at a time doing updates I'd rather be finishing the Reunification War off. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 03:31, 31 October 2014 (PDT)

Sorry, I just saw your note about planets. Here's what I have as needing an update from DARW: Dieron, Epsilon Eridani, Halloran V, Irian, Kessel, Liao, Liberty, Muphrid, New Aragon, New Earth, Oliver, Outreach, Palos, Pleione, Quentin, Ryde, Sadalbari, Sirius, Skye, Styk, Summer, Tigress, Tikonov, Towne, Unukalhai, Woodstock, Yorii, Zavijava, and Zebebelgenubi. Hopefully that will get you going. ;)--Mbear(talk) 09:14, 12 November 2014 (PST)

Excellent, thank you - I'll start working through them. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 11:14, 12 November 2014 (PST)
Having started working through the list, I've just discovered that I'd already updated a least a few of these Unukalhai and Zavijava are both definitely done. I'll carry on with the others, but it's nice to see I'm already ahead of the game ... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:39, 19 November 2014 (PST)


Hey, did you want to handle the WarShips listed in Historical: Wars of the Republic Era? I don't want to step on your toes.--Mbear(talk) 09:01, 12 November 2014 (PST)

If you don't mind, I'd love to do them - and to generate the new ship entries for the new ships mentioned, too. I updated most of those with Update Needed tags for H:WotRE already, but I haven't started on the new detail yet because I wanted to see if we could get down to 900 update needed tags as that would be just 75% of the total compared to when I started helping... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 09:11, 12 November 2014 (PST)
No problem at all. Enjoy yourself!--Mbear(talk) 11:43, 12 November 2014 (PST)


BTW, the Circinicus Federation doesn't have awards:

"The Guards have no formal awards as yet, but many veterans of the Black Warriors' attempted mutiny received personal commendations from President Mclntyre."--Field Manual: Periphery, p. 102

So that's one realm you can cross off the Awards page.--Mbear(talk) 09:03, 12 November 2014 (PST)

Aha, thank you - excellent news. Anything to drag down the number of Update Needed tags on that particular article is welcome... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 10:32, 12 November 2014 (PST)
You're almost there! Don't give up now!--Mbear(talk) 06:27, 13 November 2014 (PST)

Naval PrefixesEdit

Hi BM, I see you're working on oddball ships and their prefixes. May I request that you check the Naval Prefixes list occasionally to see if a given prefix is already listed, so that we can catch them all? Frabby (talk) 09:45, 18 November 2014 (PST)

Hi Frabby,
I actually thought OAS was in there. The fact that it evidently wasn't make me suspect that I'm misremembering writing up an article for the new JumpShip gifted to the Alliance by the Snow Ravens towards the end of the Jihad, after the restoration of shipyards above Quatre Belle. I'll have to have a nose around and see if it's something I meant to write up but hadn't managed to get to yet. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 23:37, 18 November 2014 (PST)


Hi BM, if you found time can you take a look to my created Phantom (Scout) page and the disambig links, i hope i don't take a mess, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 11:22, 18 November 2014 (PST)

Hi Doneve,
I took a look, and I think I need to start copying you when it comes to disambig links - that's a really nifty way of using the otheruses tag. You'd forgotten to change the ship name in the infobox though, so I fixed that. Definitely no problems with the disambig links, though! BrokenMnemonic (talk) 23:48, 18 November 2014 (PST)

New VesselsEdit

Hi BM, at first thanks for fix my copy and past error on the Phantom (Scout) page. I found a lot of new vessels in Battle of Twycross sourcebook. I think i start to add it to sarna, can you have a eye on this, my brain is overloaded with medics and i dont want to make a mess, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 09:57, 19 November 2014 (PST)

I'm happy to sanity check things for you   I hope they're giving you the good, fun drugs that involve dancing pink elephants wandering in and out of view? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 10:02, 19 November 2014 (PST)
Thanks Dude, i appriciate this, oh Albert Hoffmann is a good friend to make body healts much easier ;).--Doneve (talk) 10:13, 19 November 2014 (PST)


Hi BM, i hope you're not to bad injurid, best regards.--Doneve (talk) 17:28, 25 November 2014 (PST)

Yeah, get well soon man. Frabby (talk) 06:37, 26 November 2014 (PST)
Thanks for the good wishes, guys. My shoulder's mostly back to normal, although I'm still taking painkillers - but I can type again, so I should be able to start editing again soon. Although I have a bunch of Christmas cards to write first... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:39, 5 December 2014 (PST)

Planets/systems that need updatesEdit


There are only a couple planets that need updates from a single source, so I've also included some systems that need updates from two sources. Hope that's OK.

A Time of War 
A Time of War Companion 
Historical Wars of the Republic Era 
Irece, Itabaiana, Menke, Trondheim (FRR), Victoria (CC), Zanzibar
Historical Operation Klondike
Arcadia (Clan), Babylon, Circe, Dagda (Clan), Eden
Historical Liberation of Terra 1 
Apollo (planet), Odessa (also ISP3:Interstellar Expeditions)
Historical Liberation of Terra 2 
Capolla, Fletcher, Saffel, Small World
Necromo Nightmare
Jihad Hot Spots Terra 
Palos, Tigress (also House Liao (The Capellan Confederation), Yorii (also Total Chaos), Pleione (also Total Chaos)
Handbook House Marik 
Handbook House Liao 
St. Ives
Total Chaos 
Tharkad, New Earth
House Steiner (The Lyran Commonwealth) 
Ryde, Summer (also Handbook: House Steiner), Buena (also Objectives:LA)
Historical War of 3039 
Jihad Final Reckoning 
The Star League 
Foster, Hoard, Homer (Clan), Marshall

Is that enough or do you want some more?--Mbear(talk) 05:42, 9 December 2014 (PST)

Also the Rasalhague (Leviathan) and Winds of Heaven needs a Wars of Republic Era update. Single source! Yay!--Mbear(talk) 05:45, 9 December 2014 (PST)

Thanks for the list - I'll make a start when I've finished the DARW(3130) updates for Dieron and Epsilon Eridani. I'm not going near the Op KLONDIKE updates though - those are basically half of Historical: Op KLONDIKE, and I really don't enjoy reading or writing about the Clans enough to put myself through that... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 06:55, 9 December 2014 (PST)
I found a lot more, but i dont want to overhelm you with this now, but later hmmm :).--Doneve (talk) 12:38, 14 December 2014 (PST)
Uh-oh - how worried should I be? I'm hoping to start rolling out the new planet article template in the new year, and I can see that taking a fair while. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:57, 14 December 2014 (PST)
Iam on fire how to see the new planets template, my sarna edits go in the new year only to planet and manufacturing center pages, but when i have a eye catcher i will do to fix it or soms or ect. --Doneve (talk) 16:34, 14 December 2014 (PST)

New headers on planet pagesEdit

Now i see you changed the headers on A Place, i adobt this changes for the other planet pages, ok work BM.--Doneve (talk) 01:31, 16 December 2014 (PST)

I'm fiddling with my article template at the moment - there are a lot of headers that aren't going to be in most articles, simply because we don't have the information, and I'm deleting the headers that aren't used in each article. I'll upload what I've got so far here, so you can copy and paste as needed... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:44, 16 December 2014 (PST)


Hi Dude, have a nice christmas with your family and friends, and best wishes for the new year.--Doneve (talk) 05:17, 23 December 2014 (PST)

Nearby System TableEdit

Hi BM, from which source you added the Nearby Systems. I had in the past a list from Volt, i lost the document and Volt had deleted the document.--Doneve (talk) 01:44, 26 December 2014 (PST)01:42, 26 December 2014 (PST) Hi Doneve,
I'm using a copy of Volt's distances spreadsheet dated the 7th of March 2012 - is that the version you were using? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 02:48, 26 December 2014 (PST)

I got only the System database spreadsheet, not the distances (lost), can you share the distances sheet for me, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 02:53, 26 December 2014 (PST)
How you extrapolate the nearby system distances, from the main name (example: Zvolen).--Doneve (talk) 03:06, 26 December 2014 (PST)
I've uploaded a copy of the spreadsheet here: - It's got all the distances calculated in it already, you just need to sort the table by the planet you're working on. It's very handy, but it's also about 160Mb in size because of the amount of data in there. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 03:20, 26 December 2014 (PST)
Thanks, now i can help you, i go back to [A] and check the nearby system tables.--Doneve (talk) 05:38, 26 December 2014 (PST)
Thank you :) I'm plodding away slowly backwards from Z - it's not all that exciting, but it helps with rolling out the new article template if the systems tables have been updated. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 06:16, 26 December 2014 (PST)
I've just spotted that the spreadsheet isn't completely up to date - Dalmantia in the Draconis Combine is missing, which makes me wonder if some of the other SL-era DC worlds are also missing. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 11:26, 26 December 2014 (PST)
Happy holidays, kiddies! Distances Matrix The original file made use of a distance formula to measure the distance between systems, but in order to keep the file size to a minimum (88-89MB) I replaced the formulas to the final values instead, rounded off to three decimal places.-Volt (talk) 03:59, 28 December 2014 (PST)
How splendid! Just what I needed for Christmas :) I've had a quick look, and I think this has the Combine Star League era worlds in too? I do have one (tiny) problem though - I don't have the right version of MS office to run it. I've opened it in openoffice, and that truncates the number of columns at AMJ, which is Galuzzo, so I'm missing about half the worlds... is it possible to get a version for OpenOffice? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:10, 31 December 2014 (PST)
According to the wiki for OpenOffice here the maximum number of columns is 1,024, that would be the column for Galuzzo. The XLS version of Excel (2003 and earlier is only up to 256 columns, that would be Azha. Only the 2007 and later (XLSX) version of Excel can handle more than 256 columns. I tried splitting the matrix into four sheets of about 1000 columns each. You can try downloading the file again in about 10-15 minutes (file is currently still being uploaded on Dropbox) and see if you are able to view the remaining systems.
Alternatively, You can download the Systems By Era.xlsx file (link is on my User Page here in Sarna). On that file you can Enter the Base System on Cell E2 and then the cells on Column E will display the distance between this base system from all the 3,139 systems (including itself, which of course will be zero). The file will calculate the distances as you enter the reference system so this might be a bit slower than having all the distances printed out already, but it's a viable alternative.
Also, you will notice that some of the coordinates have changed because I used the 2764 map as the base map because it is more accurate, and I've fixed some transferring errors that I found here and there. Let me know if either of the two files work for you. Happy New Year!-Volt (talk) 06:36, 1 January 2015 (PST)
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